Is there no good news in the world? There's precious little in this thread.

[Ghoulish Delight]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as they are not ordered to commit war crimes, I do not consider individual actions of soldiers to be immoral, even if I don't agree with the rationale for the war. I have no problem separating that view from the "we were just following orders" defense of Nazi death camp guards. They were not engaged against a combatitve enemy, they were killing civilians. HUGE difference. When an American soldier is fighting a member of Al Quaida in Iraq, a die-hard ex member of Sadaam's red guard, or an inidividual Iraqi citizen with a gun and a grudge, both players have agreed in principle to the implicit contract of war.

It's an ugly reality, and the very reason that, while I'm not an absolute pacifist, I believe war should be a last resort, not the first. But I don't see it as being as black-and-white as that for a soldier. Unless there are egregious, tangible violations of the "rules" of war, not just political disagreements regarding the justification, then I will not blame a soldier for doing what they signed on to do.

[Nephythys]

I know alot of military people who wound find that incredibly offensive.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, they are programmed to take offense at the notion that they've been programmed.


If it's true that they've been brainwashed, all the more reason for me to hold them vastly responsible for that single decision to join the military and put themselves under the command of the Pentagon. If the resulting training renders them unable to think for themselves, then the very decision to join is a decision to open themselves to committing war crimes, if so ordered.

I hate to hold young people, many of them economically disadvantaged, to a single decision made at a tender age under stressful circumstances. But the decision to become a dog of war is momentous, and will govern a lifetime. It might as well come with exaggerated accountability.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Yes, they are programmed to take offense at the notion that they've been programmed.


If it's true that they've been brainwashed, all the more reason for me to hold them vastly responsible for that single decision to join the military and put themselves under the command of the Pentagon. If the resulting training renders them unable to think for themselves, then the very decision to join is a decision to open themselves to committing war crimes, if so ordered.

I hate to hold young people, many of them economically disadvantaged, to a single decision made at a tender age under stressful circumstances. But the decision to become a dog of war is momentous, and will govern a lifetime. It might as well come with exaggerated accountability.

I've heard of people with this attitude- but never actually met one.

I'm not impressed with that attitude, but then again, I know you could care less about that. I'm just in awe that anyone actually thinks that way.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Yes, they are programmed to take offense at the notion that they've been programmed.

Programmed. Brainwashed.

So instead of seeing heroism and exceptional people- you see victims or criminals.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I think holding soldiers morally responsible for joining the military is like calling garbage men filthy.

Someone has to do these dirty jobs. I hate it but I accept it and I don't think they should feel guilty about it.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, well, garbage men do take on the job of being filthy. Some may hold a moral compass to that, but I do not.

On the other hand, many people hold a moral compass to the job of warrior. Many do not. I happen to, and I will hold anyone responsible for the decision to let others decide whom you should kill, torture, abuse, or maim - - especially when the other in question has ordered those like you to kill, torture, abuse and maim in a manner that would be considered criminal even in wartime.



I don't consider soldiers to be evil people because of this decision, but I do hold them individually and personally accountable for the choice to be an American soldier, which may lead to many evil deeds they would be unable to resist committing.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

On the other hand, many people hold a moral compass to the job of warrior.

This, from a lawyer.

[Not Afraid]

I ran across protesters today with a sign that claimed they were "Jews for Justice" however, they were shouting in Spanish so I couldn't understand what they were protesting. Me, I was confused.

[Gemini Cricket]

One visit to this legendary mountaintop city and you'll realize why the Inca believed their gods lived high in the Andes.

"Machu Picchu might prove to be the largest and most important ruin discovered in South America since the days of the Spanish conquest," wrote Hiram Bingham, the explorer who stumbled upon the marvelous granite city in 1911. Bingham was understating things: Every year, half a million tourists head to a remote Peruvian ridge to visit the 15th-century ruins.

Source
Sounds fun!