did John Kerry just call soldiers stupid?

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I believe it is a test of your moderating abilities

Actually it's because I started the topic in the Random thread before Tramspotter started the new thread- that's why.

I suspect there are time stamps that show that-yup, by almost 90 minutes.

[SacTown Chronic]

I do not think Kerry was talking about Bush. But I also do not think he called the soldiers dumb. What Kerry said is the exact same fvcking thing I've said to my children untold times. Mind your business or you might end up a soldier or some such. And I don't believe there is a parent on this board who hasn't used some variation of this theme on their children. The military IS a last chance for many people. The military is also a means to an end as scaeagles says, I admit. But the number of people using the military to achieve their goals is a hell of a lot smaller than the number of people being used by the military.


For the record, I think you must be some sort of dumb phuck to enlist while GWB controls the military. Sux to be the person MbC described, certainly. Sux to be someone who enlisted after 9/11 to go to Afghanistan only to have Bush pull the ol' bait-and-switch on yer sorry azz and send you to Iraq. But if you enlisted specifically to fight in Iraq, well, I think you stoopid.

Funny how this entire faux outrage produces not one iota of debate over the merits of being in Iraq to begin with. Even the neocons take it as a given that the war is fvcked and they can only split hairs over someone who is NOT EVEN UP FOR ELECTION next week. Telling stuff.

Where was all this defense of our soldiers when Bush first floated the idea to invade Iraq? Neocons will make hay all day long over a non-issue but won't lift a finger to, you know, actually save a soldier's life.

[Strangler Lewis]

Nice bit on The Daily Show last night recalling a tuxedoed Bush's jokey speech about how hard he was looking for WMDs. He played a series of pictures of himself crawling around nooks and crannies of the White House. Got a good laugh. As the Daily Show correspondent pointed out, the man knows how to deliver a joke.

[innerSpaceman]

Nephy's entire presence here is a test of my moderating abilities.

[innerSpaceman]

If this is the line all the hubbub is about ...

Originally Posted by John Kerry

You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.

... then, taken completely out of context, I have to honestly say I find the sentence to imply that people who don't do well in school join the military ... and yes, I find a correllary implication that most people in the military didn't do well in school.

Further, I think the logic exercise of finding the concept "all stupid people become soldiers" not equal to "all soldiers are stupid people" to be inapplicable to this situation. The vast majority of soldiers are people of a certain age ... school age, to be precise. Even assuming that a great many smart people, or rather those who do well in school, join the military ... I find it ludicrous to assume that such people are not in the extreme minority.


I am mindful, btw, that John Kerry served in the armed forces of the United States, and knows a bit more about the composition of those armed forces than do I .... or I daresay, most of the critics lambasting his remarks.


But unless the lead-in to that controversial sentence lays the blame for not doing well in school squarely at Bush's No-Child-Left-Behind program, I honestly don't see how Kerry was talking about Bush and not about soldiers.


And frankly, if Kerry does lay all blame for doing poorly in school on the NCLB program, I find that an absurd position. Much as I regard the program a dismal failure, I believe innate intelligence still to be the determining factor in how well one does in school ... no matter what weight is given to standardized tests.



I think Kerry said soldiers are dumb. But so what?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I am mindful, btw, that John Kerry served in the armed forces of the United States, and knows a bit more about the composition of those armed forces than do I .... or I daresay, most of the critics lambasting his remarks.

I have heard a number of servicemen in the last couple of days state that many of people they served with were people who chose the military because they truly felt that they had no other options in life. It would seem that that this isn't a big secret among soldiers. And yet, there are some that still think that every soldier signs up because of a compelling patriotic duty. It just isn't so and these people need to face reality.

I lived with one of these people about 6 years ago. He couldn't hold a job, did not have the skills necessary to be successful in college, and saw the military as his only hope. He signed up about 3 months before the 2000 election and was absolutely certain that he would never going to see combat. He had been promised that if he joined, numerous opportunities would become available to him.

I often wonder about him and how he is doing. One thing I know for sure, he did not sign up out of any sense of patriotic duty. He signed up because his life was falling apart and he was desperate. Anyone who thinks that he is in the minority is, I feel, sorely mistaken.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I think Kerry said soldiers are dumb. But so what?

With all due respect, I find this idea to be ludicrous. You are asking me to believe that, in the middle of a speech that was an all out bush bash, he suddenly decided to switch gears and call the troops stupid, one week before perhaps one of th most important elections in our lifetime.

I can easily buy that Kerry screwed up the wording of a Bush joke. I cannot buy that someone that was a soldier would basically attack himself and his fellow servicemen, knowing the political backlash that would follow. Would someone who went through the swiftboat experience like he did, and who has presidential aspirations actually think it would go over well to insult the troops. It makes no sense, especially given the context of the rest of the speech. I'm just not buying it.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I can easily buy that Kerry screwed up the wording of a Bush joke.

I think it was a Freudian. Like I said earlier, I don't think he meant to say that soldiers are stupid, and I don't think it was his intent, but I think he believes it.

Kerry is someone who prides himself on debating skills and his ability to use the spoken word. How many times have we heard him misspeak while pubically addressing a crowd? Could be that he does all the time and we don't hear about it, but he prides himself on his speaking ability.

I had friends that went the military route not because they were stupid, but because they wanted training and college money. I see noproblem with that whatsoever. Before I got a scholarship I considered the same thing.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

How many times have we heard [Kerry] misspeak while pubically addressing a crowd?

Oh. Oh, oh. Glass houses, Bush fan. It kills me that we're having such a blown-out debate about someone who lost an election two years ago, when the president himself says things like "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." That wasn't a few year ago, y'all, that was Sept. 6, 2006. Where is our outraged debate about that?

Nowhere did Kerry say that soliders were stupid. He said "if you don't do your homework, your choices will be limited to the military." YOU are implying that all military = didn't do their homework. Not him.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by scaeagles, emphasis mine but typo is not

How many times have we heard him misspeak while pubically addressing a crowd?

derail
Um, also, if we want to talk about Freudian slips...
/derail