Shameless plug for a good cause

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

Not just a collection of individuals.

Mathematically, yes. Emotionally, no, which is only because I came from a reasonably positive family background and was exposed to reasonably positive examples of family behavior among my friends and relations. I also learned somewhere not to have six wives, treat women like property, demand cult-like obedience and murder my daughter because she was not my son, all of which goes on in families here and abroad. Plenty of families treat their kids like boarders, especially once they turn 18.

Community is also a positive value that conservatives like to pretend they have a monopoly on (unless they're running down the gay community). But people don't automatically make a functioning community either, as any time through the littered streets of a poor neighborhood will tell you. However, communities often rally around their less fortunate members. Whether they do it by reaching in to their own pockets, through an organized church effort or through an organized government effort doesn't seem to be a meaningful difference to me. Responsibility doesn't end at your front door.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Community is also a positive value that conservatives like to pretend they have a monopoly on

And compassion is a positive value that liberals like to pretend they have a monopoly on.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

The notion of "the family" as a holistic unit in potential conflict with the rest of society is something of a conservative fiction, no? Like society, your family is just a collection of individuals.....

Quite honestly, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

[€uroMeinke]

The lesson is, your a sucker is you have a huge savings account - the bigger the debt, the better off you are. At least when entering into a catastrophic health care situation.

[tracilicious]

From this link.

Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

All the other countries make it work. Why can't we?

[innerSpaceman]

scaeagles, what are you on about? Is the concept of insurance totally beyond your comprehension? What about taxes?

The individual contributing to the common good goes on all the time. It's a scheme of society that's been quite successful over the course of human history.

By your logic, why should I pay for education when I have no school-age children?

You may disagree that health care should be treated like flood damage or road construction ... but don't pretend that individual contributions to common good (which may or may not benefit any given contributing individual) doesn't go on all the time in modern society.


If people are not left to their own devices for basic education and basic infrastructure, I see no reason why they should be for the far more important role of basic health care.





.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

The individual contributing to the common good goes on all the time. It's a scheme of society that's been quite successful over the course of human history.

By your logic, why should I pay for eduction when I have no school-age children?

You may disagree that health care should be treated like flood damage or road construction ... but don't pretend that individual contributions to common good (which may or may not benefit any given contributing individual) goes on all the time in modern society.

If people are not left to their own devices for basic education and basic infrastructure, I see no reason why they should be for the far more important role of basic health care.

We currently DO pay into a community pool (via taxes) for a health care system for those in need (Medicare, Medicade, etc.).

And if our education system is working so well, why are there so many people putting their children into PRIVATE schools? Doing so even though they are paying their taxes for the public education system as well? Because our Education system is so f-ed up by bureaucracy and government involvement. No, I don't think government should get out of the education business, I am just using this as an example of how government is not the savior it is being protrayed as via the creation of a UHC system.

[Kevy Baby]

The link above is broken, but I was able to figure it out. It is a site dedicated to all of the arguments in favor of UHC (not blasting that, just putting it into perspective).

I am surprised that no one has brought up Canada, as our neighbor to the north is often mentioned as a sucess of UHC. However, as people are discovering, the downside of UHC is POOR QUALITY OF CARE.

Off and on, I have looked into UHC. There are gazillions of links both pro and con. Each will provide the horror stories of what is wrong with the opposing idealogy - to the point of people that have died that would not have had they had their own type of health coverage. And that is BS.

People are not dying unnecessarily under our current health system. Yes, our current health care system has flaws. But UHC is not an answer - it is simply a whole new set of problems. A change that I am not willing to make as it is not progress!

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

People are not dying unnecessarily under our current health system.

I'm not so sure about this, people certainly are forgoing prescribed prescriptions, which can't have a positive effect. Likewise I think people are putting off care, which also increases the chances of death. Granted these are choices people are making.

I think the real problem is the cost of health care has become so high, there are a gazillion tests and procedures one can undergo to rule out a certain diagnosis, and in the fear of mortality we certainly will want to try everything, including the high cost and experimental. As a result Insurance Companies are now gate keepers of care, no different than the government gate keepers in those horror stories. In any scenario, you have to set a base level, and there will be a population that disagrees with where that is set and people will die unnecessarily.

[Kevy Baby]

Okay, so we are getting rid of some of the surplus population.