The death penalty

[Prudence]

I'm not sure it's accurate to equate the death penalty with abortion. There are contextual issues. If you're going to argue that killing is killing, then I don't see how you can make exceptions for war. War is killing in context. The death penalty is killing in context. Abortion is killing in context. I'm sure there are more examples I haven't thought of just now. And you will find people on both sides of each of these issues, and I'd wager that most people are on one side for some and one side for others.

Abortion seems to be the biggest hot button, so let's use war and the death penalty as hypotheticals.

Hypothetically, I might frame war as killing in the context of political conflict (let's hear it for understatements!) And I might hypothetically say war X is "good" and that we have the right, nay obligation, to kill if necessary to achieve a specific political end.

Contrariwise, I might frame the death penalty in the context of legal punishment, and hypothetically hold that I don't think death is appropriate when applied as a punishment.

Sometimes I think the only hope for humans as a species is to discuss issues in context and strive to understand why someone has reached a conclusion opposite ours -- especially conclusions that appear to us so clearly wrong as to indicate the other party has taken leave of their senses. The further you trace back your reasoning, the more likely you are to discover the initial kernal of dissention. And you won't resolve anything until you've uncovered and dealt with that. And thus simple solutions never are. Perhaps more emphasis on uncovering essential differences of value and less emphasis on surfance manifestations alleged to be "values" would be more constructive and lead to solutions not yet imagined.

But then again, as was once said about a girl in a rabbit hole: "She generally gave herself very good advice, (though she very seldom followed it)"

[wendybeth]

Great post, great points, Prudence. It's nice to see a reasoned, articulate response to a complex question. Thank you!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Thank you Prudence, that was a much better response. That's what I was trying to get at, that the two issues aren't even comparable. It's not as black and white as, "This is killing, that's killing, therefore I have one opinion on both and to not is hypocritical." My opposition to the death penalty is entirely unrelated to my support of abortion rights. It's not relevant to the argument.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

First of all, thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread. I have to be honest and admit to being disappointed that the discussion moved from the death penalty to abortion though. I really wanted to focus on the story in the OP a bit more.

I'm just as guilty as anyone though of injecting my own beliefs into threads that may, at times, be off-topic, just because I am passionate about them. It can be hard not to. All I suppose I can ask is that, if we continue this discussion, we try to get back to the original topic and refrain from flaming each other. It's an interesting topic and so many of you have made elequent contributions. I'd love to hear more opinions, even conflicting ones, as long as we try to keep focused.

[€uroMeinke]

I lean against the death penalty, but I think the Supreme Court did the right thing in setting 18 as the age of eligibility. It's the standard we're accustomed to accepting for adulthood even if there is some grey zone before and after that age.

[Nephythys]

(WB- I didn't hijack anything. I find the two to be very closely linked-and is part of MY view. TYVM)

Lizziebith-I'm not even going to have the discussion with you. I didn't judge a damn thing about you or anyone else, I just made my comments, you don't like them? Really that's just too bad. I don't like ALOT of things people here say and believe, I have to deal and just add what I have to say.... and I had no freaking clue it was a stupid song- TYVM to you too.

I find this notion that somehow at the magical age of 18 we are all of a sudden accountable or able to deal with the notion of being put to death for committing a brutal crime, to be completely ridiculous. The day before we turn 18, are we really any less aware and accountable? Of course not- I think it's an artificial line and an empty feel good notion that accounts to something illogical and useless. These minors were not found incompetent, they were found guilty, and sentenced according to their crime and the law. To now pretend that due to their age it's just not right is, IMO, a disingenuous notion. Now we get to support these savages for the rest of their lives- hell, by the time we get to the actual death penalty phase- how many of them are even still minors????

and since I don't give a damn that people don't like my relation between the two (I thought we were here to post our feelings and opinions on the subject- no one gets to tell me what a valid opinion is for me)- I find it especially ludicrous to whine about putting savage killers to death just because they were minors- yet we fight for the right to kill the unborn. Don't tell me the two have nothing to do with each other- this court decision....they say so many people say it's wrong to put a minor to death for commiting murder-if we are going to start making laws and decisions based on what is called a popular opinion- any of you choicers want to put that on the public polling block and see how it comes out? It simply makes no sense to me at all-

Why the hell do I even get into these stupid things- apparently I like tilting at windmills.

Bottom line MBC- there is no uber-magical date or age that makes us a lost cause, but being 17 should not make you exempt from being punished to the extent of the law when you have deliberately committed a crime that has a death penalty sentence as a possibility.

And I'm sorry you are disappointed- to me the two are very closely connected and so I used that in my posts- it was not an attempt to change the subject. It is MY opinion, and everyone who chooses to say they are not connected in their minds is free to do so- I can't- and I fail to see why I should then simply shut up and say nothing just because I have that view......I thought we wanted all sorts of views here, including my minority view and I am just as disappointed that people think it is ok to stifle MY view because they do not hold with it-

[SacTown Chronic]

My #1 problem with the death penalty is that our justice system is another form of class warfare. Rich murderers go golfing and poor murderers get to fry. I *know* innocent poor men have been executed, but has there ever been an innocent rich man put to death in this country?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Bottom line MBC- there is no uber-magical date or age that makes us a lost cause, but being 17 should not make you exempt from being punished to the extent of the law when you have deliberately committed a crime that has a death penalty sentence as a possibility.

Fair enough. Let me ask you though, if a 12 year old is guilty of murdering someone, are you in favor of killing them? We, as a society, have determined that someone who is under 18 isn't capable of making a decision to vote, sign a binding legal contract, or have a cigarette.

And I'm sorry you are disappointed- to me the two are very closely connected and so I used that in my posts- it was not an attempt to change the subject. It is MY opinion, and everyone who chooses to say they are not connected in their minds is free to do so- I can't- and I fail to see why I should then simply shut up and say nothing just because I have that view......I thought we wanted all sorts of views here, including my minority view and I am just as disappointed that people think it is ok to stifle MY view because they do not hold with it-

Nephy, if I didn't want opposing viewpoints, I wouldn't have started the thread. I wanted those viewpoints to focus on the topic at hand though. The sections of your posts that focused on the death penalty were welcome contributions, even if I don't agree with them. You aren't the only one in this thread that is pro-death penalty. Others have stated the same view and received no backlash whatsoever. So this isn't a case of your views being stifled. It's simply a matter of wanting to stay on topic.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Fair enough. Let me ask you though, if a 12 year old is guilty of murdering someone, are you in favor of killing them? We, as a society, have determined that someone who is under 18 isn't capable of making a decision to vote, sign a binding legal contract, or have a cigarette.

#1- I think they have to be tried as adults before the death penalty can be used. Right? If a 12 year old murders people and is tried as an adult under our code of law and they sentence them to death- would I fight it? No. Does it make me comfortable? No. But I don't feel comfortable setting a precedent that just because you are YOUNG means you can kill without threat of the maximum extent of the law.

Nephy, if I didn't want opposing viewpoints, I wouldn't have started the thread. I wanted those viewpoints to focus on the topic at hand though. The sections of your posts that focused on the death penalty were welcome contributions, even if I don't agree with them. You aren't the only one in this thread that is pro-death penalty. Others have stated the same view and received no backlash whatsoever. So this isn't a case of your views being stifled. It's simply a matter of wanting to stay on topic.

To ME it is part of the topic at hand! To prattle on about caring about this court decision based on some sort of concern for the age of the people receiving the death penalty plays into a larger picture for me that I have talked about. I am not making this an abortion debate- I am discussing the topic in the CONTEXT that I view it through. I don't care if I was the only pro-death penalty person here- but I still fail to see why people want to tell me what context I can discuss this in. It's frustrating and I am trying to not let it get to me- see- if you decide it is valid to the topic, it is welcome, but if you decide it is not part of the topic I am unwelcome- it doesn't matter if it IS part o the topic to me! I always bring it back to the death penalty- and I am not derailing or trying to make this about something other than it is- but I am trying to discuss it in the context I view it through-

bah- forget it.

[Prudence]

I don't think anyone has told anyone else to shut up, at least in this forum. However, I personally don't find ad hominem attacks useful for anything but starting fights. And frankly I don't have time for a fight right now.