Addiction in America - Page 10

Not Afraid · 07-16-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ponine

I have no idea if I exhibited any behavior to warrant sending me. It was something my family wanted me to do.

Well, if you don't WANT what they have to offer than the program won't do much good. YOU have to be willing - which usually means that you, yourself are tired of living with the results and effects of the behaviors of others. I don't know much about sex addiction, effects and treatment but I can imagine that. living with a sex addict, would skew how a person looks at and reacts to sex.

Alex · 07-16-2007, 12:28 PM

I regret using the word scam. I do think, however, that AA and 12-step in general is broadly misrepresented as more effective than it is and when it does work for an individual I think the cause is misassigned (the former is more of an objective statement the latter more of a personal metaphysical view).

I do not mean to suggest that anybody who feels it can help them stop drinking shouldn't try it.

I strongly suspect that if we were all sitting on couches in living rooms this is a conversation I would have been able to have without pissing anybody off or hurting any feelings but I am apparently not capable of it in written form.

So I'll stop trying and take my licks.

===

Having nothing to do with 12-step/AA.

iSm, I think the tobacco number is a bit not like the others since it simply talks about users and not addiction, not every smoker is addicted (though the rate is higher than for just about anything else). If the same were done with alcohol, according to a page at USDH the alcohol number would be 110 million. No real number is given caffeine but I'm guessing even when talking addiction (not usage) it way outnumbers smoking (though the negative impacts of caffeine usage are much less than the other drugs on the list).

Not Afraid · 07-16-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

I regret using the word scam. I do think, however, that AA and 12-step in general is broadly misrepresented as more effective than it is and when it does work for an individual I think the cause is misassigned (the former is more of an objective statement the latter more of a personal metaphysical view).

Alcoholism is a disease. Cancer is a disease. Chemo doesn't always work. People die from cancer that has resisted treatment every day. But, that doesn't mean that treatment shouldn't be sought nor revisited if it doesn't work the first time. I look at AA very similarly.

innerSpaceman · 07-16-2007, 12:32 PM

Maybe you can find the studies to reveal the stats ... but in my experience, 96 out of a hundred smokers are addicted to tobacco. I think the number of users pretty much represents the number of addicts.

I could be wrong. This is based just on everybody I've ever known who smokes or smoked cigarettes (teehee, except me).

Alex · 07-16-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Maybe you can find the studies to reveal the stats ... but in my experience, 96 out of a hundred smokers are addicted to tobacco. I think the number of users pretty much represents the number of addicts.

I could be wrong. This is based just on everybody I've ever known who smokes or smoked cigarettes (teehee, except me).

Yeah, I wasn't saying that the number of non-addicted smokers isn't large, just not 100% of the number of people who smoke. But I didn't have any numbers in support, just a feeling that it was a sensible statement (and a minor anality in being annoyed that the list was comparing different units).

So I got some help and tracked down some numbers. Not a deep literature search but it appears that depending on how you define "addiction indicators" about 50% of casual smokers (less than six cigarettes a day) show signs of addiction and somewhere between 85% and 95% of non-casual (six or more) smokers show signs of addiction.

Here's one study in particular, a CDC study of women in the United States. It defines a smoker as anybody who has smoked more than 100 cigarettes and at least one in the last 30 days. So, if those numbers, are approximately representative and the original list used the same definitions then of the 74.5 million smokers you'd expect about 60 million to be addicted. Of course, if whatever source that list uses had a more restrictive definition that cuts out the more casual end of the smoking scale then the percentage goes up. A British study gives a 5% non-addiction rate among regular smokers.

Not a hugely important distinction I just like lists to be in the same units of measurement. I'd still guess that technically caffeine addiction is higher in gross numbers. Except in Utah.

€uroMeinke · 07-16-2007, 05:43 PM

Hmmm - I put the "Anons" in a different category than those groups focused on addiction. I understand addiction effects family members and other loved one's and some of the tools of AA and other 12-step programs can certainly be used and be of benefit to those not facing addiction directly.

People can be codependent, enabling the addicts, and certainly can send their own lives out of balance if trying to deal with it. In that regards, I can certainly see the benefit some might derive from it. But making such a thing mandatory won't do much.

I went to a few Alanon meetings but never connected to the people there so I stopped going. In that regard I found other group sessions with both alcoholic and family/loved ones far more beneficial in understanding the disease, it effects, and healthier ways I can deal with it in my life as the "normie."

Oh and sessions, while not a 12-step program, usually closed with the serenity prayer but that didn't bother me (or the other self-identified atheists) - I just took it as metaphor.

mousepod · 07-16-2007, 06:20 PM

Like some others here, I have a lot to say but will restrict my comments to a couple of semi-related points.

Over 20 years ago, I met someone whose idea about addiction was that many people who live with addictions are actually addicted to euphoria, which she defined as "an unearned sense of well-being". This definition obviously covers alcoholics and addicts, but also can include people who do unhealthy things to make themselves feel better, whether it be smoke a cigarette, eat lots of crappy food, play the stock market, or sit in front of a video game. Assuming that this theory is true, the stats in the OP would refer more to a "drug of choice" than anything else.

As far as the "anon" programs, I understand that many of them are based on the idea of codependency, which some describe as the concept of deriving your self-worth from the opinions of others. I don't mean to sound rude, but whenever I hear about someone who goes to many "anon" meetings because someone else "makes them go", I have to laugh, because letting other people decide how you run your private life is an indicator of codependency.

Isaac · 07-21-2007, 03:15 PM

Ah, what little jems you discover after several weeks without internet!

I'm not going to spend too much time typing this cause I haven't had anything to eat all day and I'm quite hungry.

My feelings on addictions: it's all about self discipline and control (or lack of). I believe that anyone can control their behavior but it's up to each individual to discover that for themself. How & where someone gets that idea/inspiration is different for everyone. I've been to a few AA's before & can't really agree with people like Alex nor can I agree with Not Afraid. I don't think a program like AA is accurate in telling people they are powerless over their addiction or claiming alcoholism is a disease since it's not. However, the program has helped many people get their lives back together so it's definitely not some scam or fraud. I think God has already given us the power to better ourselves. We are not powerless. The problem is it's up to each individulal to realize that. As for not believing in God, I think atheism is stupid & childish but I'll save that for another thread.

Me personally, I'm not an alcoholic, but I am compulsive about the things I like (Disneyland, Madonna, Jazz, photography, computers, iSm, etc.) so I can get addicited if I let my behavior take control of me, rather than me controlling my behavior. I often give people the wrong impression of me, but I've been doing that most my life so I don't care much to correct anyone anymore.

The thing that annoy me about drugs is that only some are legal & others are not. I'd prefer they'd all be legal or all be illegal.

Anywho, those are just "some" thoughts of mine on this topic.

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a whopper with my name on it.

innerSpaceman · 07-22-2007, 08:23 AM

I don't know what the clinical definition of disease is, but I'm sure we each have our own turning point where a body malfunction becomes disease in our eyes.

I'm not sure that flooding the brain with dopamine is a disease. This happens with both alcohol and drugs, and it makes cravings stronger (to achieve similar pleasure satisfaction). Certainly the functioning of nerve cells is altered when they are releasing excess dopamine, but I don't think that's a disease, per se.

On the other hand, Heroine and Morphine cause other nerve cells to cease release of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, the substance that prevents dopamine receptors from getting overstimulated. This is a more serious malfunction, physically preventing an important brain chemistry function and artificially upsetting a vital balance. I, myself, would call this a disease.

It's not claimed that alcohol causes this same effect. But is heroin addiction a disease, while alcohol addiction is not?

Perhaps.

And what about the cognitive disabiities associated with methamphetamine addicts? Brain scans demonstrate reduced levels of activation in the prefrontal cortex, where rationale thought can override impulsive behavior. It's not possible right now to say whether drugs have damaged these functions in meth addicts (i.e., an effect rather than a cause) ... but the cognitive defect existed in only some of the meth addicts in this study, suggesting there was something innate that was unique to them.

This inability to resist cravings or to make rationale decisions when it comes to imbibing drugs or alcohol is, I believe, the essence of whether or not overcoming addiction is simply a matter of will.

If the cognitive malfunction is caused by drugs, I'd call that a disease. If, rather, those who become addicted to drugs have an innate cognitive malfunction, I'd call it a disability.

In either case ... I'm willing to grant it's not a matter of purely free or strong will to combat methamphetamine addiction.

It's not been shown, as far as I can tell, that alcohol abuse results in or from the same kind of brain deficiencies as meth or heroin or morphine ... but I'm willing to keep an open mind that it's not simply a matter of having a strong enough will to resist.

07-16-2007, 12:28 PM	#2
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I regret using the word scam. I do think, however, that AA and 12-step in general is broadly misrepresented as more effective than it is and when it does work for an individual I think the cause is misassigned (the former is more of an objective statement the latter more of a personal metaphysical view). I do not mean to suggest that anybody who feels it can help them stop drinking shouldn't try it. I strongly suspect that if we were all sitting on couches in living rooms this is a conversation I would have been able to have without pissing anybody off or hurting any feelings but I am apparently not capable of it in written form. So I'll stop trying and take my licks. === Having nothing to do with 12-step/AA. iSm, I think the tobacco number is a bit not like the others since it simply talks about users and not addiction, not every smoker is addicted (though the rate is higher than for just about anything else). If the same were done with alcohol, according to a page at USDH the alcohol number would be 110 million. No real number is given caffeine but I'm guessing even when talking addiction (not usage) it way outnumbers smoking (though the negative impacts of caffeine usage are much less than the other drugs on the list).
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07-16-2007, 12:32 PM	#4
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Maybe you can find the studies to reveal the stats ... but in my experience, 96 out of a hundred smokers are addicted to tobacco. I think the number of users pretty much represents the number of addicts. I could be wrong. This is based just on everybody I've ever known who smokes or smoked cigarettes (teehee, except me).
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07-16-2007, 05:43 PM	#6
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	Hmmm - I put the "Anons" in a different category than those groups focused on addiction. I understand addiction effects family members and other loved one's and some of the tools of AA and other 12-step programs can certainly be used and be of benefit to those not facing addiction directly. People can be codependent, enabling the addicts, and certainly can send their own lives out of balance if trying to deal with it. In that regards, I can certainly see the benefit some might derive from it. But making such a thing mandatory won't do much. I went to a few Alanon meetings but never connected to the people there so I stopped going. In that regard I found other group sessions with both alcoholic and family/loved ones far more beneficial in understanding the disease, it effects, and healthier ways I can deal with it in my life as the "normie." Oh and sessions, while not a 12-step program, usually closed with the serenity prayer but that didn't bother me (or the other self-identified atheists) - I just took it as metaphor. __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-16-2007, 06:20 PM	#7
mousepod You broke your Ramadar! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,635	Like some others here, I have a lot to say but will restrict my comments to a couple of semi-related points. Over 20 years ago, I met someone whose idea about addiction was that many people who live with addictions are actually addicted to euphoria, which she defined as "an unearned sense of well-being". This definition obviously covers alcoholics and addicts, but also can include people who do unhealthy things to make themselves feel better, whether it be smoke a cigarette, eat lots of crappy food, play the stock market, or sit in front of a video game. Assuming that this theory is true, the stats in the OP would refer more to a "drug of choice" than anything else. As far as the "anon" programs, I understand that many of them are based on the idea of codependency, which some describe as the concept of deriving your self-worth from the opinions of others. I don't mean to sound rude, but whenever I hear about someone who goes to many "anon" meetings because someone else "makes them go", I have to laugh, because letting other people decide how you run your private life is an indicator of codependency. __________________ "Give the public everything you can give them, keep the place as clean as you can keep it, keep it friendly" - Walt Disney Last edited by mousepod : 07-16-2007 at 06:45 PM.
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07-21-2007, 03:15 PM	#8
Isaac the one n only Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Anaheim Posts: 1,236	Ah, what little jems you discover after several weeks without internet! I'm not going to spend too much time typing this cause I haven't had anything to eat all day and I'm quite hungry. My feelings on addictions: it's all about self discipline and control (or lack of). I believe that anyone can control their behavior but it's up to each individual to discover that for themself. How & where someone gets that idea/inspiration is different for everyone. I've been to a few AA's before & can't really agree with people like Alex nor can I agree with Not Afraid. I don't think a program like AA is accurate in telling people they are powerless over their addiction or claiming alcoholism is a disease since it's not. However, the program has helped many people get their lives back together so it's definitely not some scam or fraud. I think God has already given us the power to better ourselves. We are not powerless. The problem is it's up to each individulal to realize that. As for not believing in God, I think atheism is stupid & childish but I'll save that for another thread. Me personally, I'm not an alcoholic, but I am compulsive about the things I like (Disneyland, Madonna, Jazz, photography, computers, iSm, etc.) so I can get addicited if I let my behavior take control of me, rather than me controlling my behavior. I often give people the wrong impression of me, but I've been doing that most my life so I don't care much to correct anyone anymore. The thing that annoy me about drugs is that only some are legal & others are not. I'd prefer they'd all be legal or all be illegal. Anywho, those are just "some" thoughts of mine on this topic. Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a whopper with my name on it. __________________
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07-22-2007, 08:23 AM	#9
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I don't know what the clinical definition of disease is, but I'm sure we each have our own turning point where a body malfunction becomes disease in our eyes. I'm not sure that flooding the brain with dopamine is a disease. This happens with both alcohol and drugs, and it makes cravings stronger (to achieve similar pleasure satisfaction). Certainly the functioning of nerve cells is altered when they are releasing excess dopamine, but I don't think that's a disease, per se. On the other hand, Heroine and Morphine cause other nerve cells to cease release of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, the substance that prevents dopamine receptors from getting overstimulated. This is a more serious malfunction, physically preventing an important brain chemistry function and artificially upsetting a vital balance. I, myself, would call this a disease. It's not claimed that alcohol causes this same effect. But is heroin addiction a disease, while alcohol addiction is not? Perhaps. And what about the cognitive disabiities associated with methamphetamine addicts? Brain scans demonstrate reduced levels of activation in the prefrontal cortex, where rationale thought can override impulsive behavior. It's not possible right now to say whether drugs have damaged these functions in meth addicts (i.e., an effect rather than a cause) ... but the cognitive defect existed in only some of the meth addicts in this study, suggesting there was something innate that was unique to them. This inability to resist cravings or to make rationale decisions when it comes to imbibing drugs or alcohol is, I believe, the essence of whether or not overcoming addiction is simply a matter of will. If the cognitive malfunction is caused by drugs, I'd call that a disease. If, rather, those who become addicted to drugs have an innate cognitive malfunction, I'd call it a disability. In either case ... I'm willing to grant it's not a matter of purely free or strong will to combat methamphetamine addiction. It's not been shown, as far as I can tell, that alcohol abuse results in or from the same kind of brain deficiencies as meth or heroin or morphine ... but I'm willing to keep an open mind that it's not simply a matter of having a strong enough will to resist.
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