Debates of all ilk

[Gemini Cricket]

What was that whole thing McCain was saying about South Koreans being 3 inches taller than North Koreans? Huh?

McCain had this steamroller tactic of just barreling on even though his time was up and Jim Lehrer was moving on.

I liked how Obama addressed almost every jab McCain got in. It was what I wanted Kerry to do and he didn't.

I think Obama had the slight edge over McCain, but it wasn't a huge victory for either candidate. I don't see anyone actually changing their minds based on this debate. In fact, I don't expect anyone to be swayed by any of the debates.

I liked the whole 'Yeah, I have a bracelet, too' moment.

[bewitched]

CBS/Knowledge Networks poll of uncommitted voters immediately after the debate:

39% Obama
24% McCain
37% draw

Nearly half of those uncommitted voters who watched the debate said that their image of Obama changed for the better as a result. Just eight percent say their opinion of Obama got worse, and 46 percent reported no change in their opinions.

McCain saw less improvement in his image. Thirty-two percent have improved their image of McCain as a result of the debate, but 21 percent said their views of him are now worse than before.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

What was that whole thing McCain was saying about South Koreans being 3 inches taller than North Koreans? Huh?

Years of famine and childhood malnutrition has produced of generation of North Koreans that are significantly shorter than their counterparts in South Korea and even the older generations in North Korea (and those older generations are of approximately the same average height whether in North or South Korea).

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...4&slug=korea14

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/...renthelegacyof

[€uroMeinke]

I caught about 10 minutes of the debate - enough to hear the candidates avoid the questions with their canned faux-responses. Then I put on the new Bitter:sweet CD - can't wait to see them live. This political season is really making me appreciate music more.

[scaeagles]

I watched and then I read. I think there is a bit of a Nixon-Kennedy vibe, honestly. Watching I gave the nod to Obama. He just looked the part. Reading I gave it to McCain. But I agree with GD (where's that quote he submitted once about agreeing with me and how aweful it made him feel?) that neither side clearly had an advantage, and neither side gaffed.

This was encouraging to me in one way. I remember going on MousePlanet after the first Bush-Kerrey debate nearly vomiting and incredibly depressed because Bush sucked so freakin' badly. And then Bush still won the election (making all of you feel like vomiting and incredibly depressed).

I will say this. If Obama does what he says he will, I do not regard him as someone I can't ever support should he win. However, I keep getting the Bill Clinton promising a middle class tax cut feeling and I know that Obama is just a politician, same as everyone else, saying what he thinks will get him elected. To be fair, McCain does the same thing, but McCain has shown more legislating with the other side moving across the aisle than Obama has. Freak out about it, but I can name a bunch of examples (most of which I hated, by the way).

Anyway....eh. Don't think this debate changed anyone's mind, which at this point plays to Obama with his lead.

[3894]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Don't think this debate changed anyone's mind

I don't get how anyone can be undecided in this election.

I agreed with my boyfriend Paul Begala's take (surprise!). The overall impression of John McCain is Mr. Yesterday. The overall impression of Obama is Mr. Future.

[Strangler Lewis]

I don't care that McCain stumbled over Achmedinejad. I think he would have come across well to anyone who thought that at age 72 he was a bumbler. I wasn't as bothered as some by his obvious rudeness, but I do agree with the commentator who said that it didn't play well because Obama, beyond principled disagreement, didn't give him any openings where taking that tone made any sense.

I thought McCain did a good job at showcasing his experience with foreign affairs, and I thought Obama did a better job than McCain at cramming his opponent's mistakes down his throat. McCain gets the nod for worst line of the night with his "How about we don't spend any money?" riposte.

I did come away thinking that if a Republican had to steal the last two elections, I would have preferred it be McCain than Bush, but overall I thought Obama won a close one.

[innerSpaceman]

scaeagles, which part of Obama's plans (which, yeah, are just elect-me bluster) freak you out? Is it the drawdown of troops from Iraq to increase the levels in Afghanistan? Is it the closing of corporate tax loopholes and not giving businesses a further tax break, but instead extending that break to individuals making less than $200,00 annually? Is it the committment to invest as heavily as possible in renewal energies, including nuclear power?

Those seem to be the 3 topics he belabored through the debate. He barely mentioned his healthcare plan, and when he did, it was with zero detail. If that's what you object to, I call shenanigans. He didn't mention anything about it during the debate, except the vague goal of all Americans having "access" to "basic" healthcare.


Please don't fall for what McCain might have said about it. It's best discount the way each candidate mischaracterizes the positions of the other. Dirty pool.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

scaeagles, which part of Obama's plans (which, yeah, are just elect-me bluster) freak you out? Is it the drawdown of troops from Iraq to increase the levels in Afghanistan? Is it the closing of corporate tax loopholes and not giving businesses a further tax break, but instead extending that break to individuals making less than $200,00 annually? Is it the committment to invest as heavily as possible in renewal energies, including nuclear power?

Like I said, if Obama does what he says, I'm NOT overly freaked out and think I even said that (though not in that way). I simply don't trust him (nor do I in particular trust McCain) to do it. I think I said I keep getting a Bill Clinton middle class tax cut feeling from Obama - sounds great, appeals to people, but never happened, nor do I believe Clinton was ever serious about one.

Drawdown of troops to increase in Afghanistan? This I have no problem with as the Iraqis are doing an increasingly better job taking charge of their own security. No problem whatsoever as long as it is done gradually. Makes sense.

Corporate taxes. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. Corporate taxes are passed along to the consumer as a price increase. Unless you start capping profit margins, there is no net positive effect to the consumer. If corporate taxes cause price increases to an extent that it costs the middle class more than their tax breaks - a very real possibility - then what happens is the economy worsens, it gets herder for the middle class, and the politicians get to portray the corporations as the bad guys and pointing to their middle class tax cuts. Obama knows this and I feel this is where he is being very disingenuous and simply pandering. This does bother me.

Renewable energies are wonderful and McCain would invest no less. I just think that Obama is being disingenuous here as well. For all the cries of drilling doesn't dive us a drop of oil for 10 years, how long will it take to get nuclear power plants online with all the environmental restrictions? There are reasons we haven't built any. I'm all for them. Best form of energy there is. How long will it take to develop these alternative forms? Reliance on those is a long, long time away. Even then, the primary source of of energy needs, being transportation, isn't going to be using clean electricity for a long time. I'd feel better if Obama acknowledged that. Obama once said gas prices only bothered him because of how quickly they went up. That bothers me. His policies don't, I just think they are very incomplete and that McCain has a better handle on the immediate needs as well as the long term sneeds.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Corporate taxes. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. Corporate taxes are passed along to the consumer as a price increase

Leo, we've been over this. You can deny it all you want, but it's one of the most basic principles of supply and demand economics and is mathematical truth. Taxes levied against the supply side are NOT proportionately compensated for in consumer prices. The more elastic the price of the good, the smaller impact a supply-side tax has on a consumer. It is a function of the slope of the demand curve.