Mumbai under siege - Page 3

JWBear · 11-27-2008, 09:10 AM

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with the Bollywood theme; I think it's way cool. I also have no problem with staying with that theme after yesterday's events. What I objected to was GD's suggestion that we use this tragedy as a source of further merriment; something I found tasteless and insensitive.

innerSpaceman · 11-27-2008, 09:14 AM

Well, whether I would make a joke about it or not ..... any big event in India is going to make me think of the Bollywood Party. I doubt I'm the only one on the LoT who'd make such a connection at the start of the holiday season that will end spectacularly with Bollywood!

Depending on the "other item" intersecting with Bollywood, questionable taste might ensue. But let's face it, when has big news out of India ever been good?

innerSpaceman · 11-27-2008, 09:20 AM

It's a party! I think the crossing line is pretty far out there.

But here's the example the mystery person used that got me to thinking.

Japanese party. Kimonos, Geisha costumes, paper lanterns. Charming, yes? Many guests used glue or something to slant their eyes! Um, wait a minute ... somehow less charming to me, and more mocking. But where is that line, and isn't it different for everybody?

€uroMeinke · 11-27-2008, 09:49 AM

I think the line is all about intent - are you celebrating, or are you mocking? - culturwise anyway

Black humor is a whole other thing and I think by definition intentional (or at least potentially) offensive. Time helps soften the blow, would anyone blink at having a mock guillotine at a Bastille Day party?

LSPoorEeyorick · 11-27-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I think the line is all about intent - are you celebrating, or are you mocking?

The line for me is all about intent, anyway. You've captured my feelings on it very well. But I think that line is different for some people... my acquaintances who started the argument feel very strongly that ANY wearing/using/decorating with another culture is appropriation and harmful to the culture in question. I don't agree.

€uroMeinke · 11-27-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

The line for me is all about intent, anyway. You've captured my feelings on it very well. But I think that line is different for some people... my acquaintances who started the argument feel very strongly that ANY wearing/using/decorating with another culture is appropriation and harmful to the culture in question. I don't agree.

Would that mean I'd be forced to live out my life in Lederhosen? Is anything outside your own "Cultural Dress" not appropriated from something else?

I understand the reasoning somewhat - but I still think its wrong as this stuff is so transient anyway even the "traditions."

LSPoorEeyorick · 11-27-2008, 09:53 AM

Yes, exactly, I think the line differs from person to person. And I have no problem with the party - I just wanted to loop in the discussion I had on my other board to try to give some perspective to the situation, as to why someone would feel that way.

The Geisha argument is a staple of the anti-cultural-appropriation movement, I think. The first argument I witnessed was started over a pair of Ed Hardy boots with Geisha on them. Several people were strongly, adamantly opposed to them. I just thought they were pretty. We were much at odds - demonstrating exactly that the line is different for everyone.

Prudence · 11-27-2008, 09:59 AM

I think that Americans have a history of "appropriating" aspects of various cultures with no intent to honor or appreciate that culture - sort of a manifest destiny of cultural attributes. As a result, other cultures aren't so likely to take our themed parties as a bumbling sort of respect, but rather a combination of zoo visit and "playing native."

Avoiding such theming, on the other hand, might lead back to isolationism. Should I not eat at "ethnic" restaurants because to me the food is "neat-o!" and not routine comfort food my mom used to make? Should I not see foreign language films because I can't appreciate them the same way a native speaker would?

Of course not. The best I can do is try to express that I'm following these experiences because I'm genuinely interested in something that I find valuable and worthwhile, and while I'll never have a complete contextual understanding of what it means to be someone I'm not, by attempting to emulate their activities perhaps I will have a better appreciation for the contributions of others - both historic and contemporary.

LSPoorEeyorick · 11-27-2008, 10:03 AM

That was my exact position in that argument, actually. I even used the word "Lederhosen," since the largest portion of my Heinz 57 European background is German. I also understand the reasoning (and try to follow a similar personal pattern as Pru mentioned) but, as always, the extremists baffle me.

innerSpaceman · 11-27-2008, 10:05 AM

Well, we all know how much I love dress-up. If that's nasty appropriation for the length of a genial party ... then fvck 'em! Get a grip.

However .... the slant-eye thing got to me - because I think my uber-pale vampire complexion is going to look stupid in Indian Garb, and I was actually thinking of darkening my skin with tanning agents for Bollywood night. Uh-oh. Is this a step too far in the wrong direction?

To me it's all about fun and fashion play. But I've never been accused of being the most racially sensitive person.

Anyway, bring on the guillotine, yes. But hold the burning Taj Mahal for at least a few years.

11-27-2008, 09:10 AM	#1
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with the Bollywood theme; I think it's way cool. I also have no problem with staying with that theme after yesterday's events. What I objected to was GD's suggestion that we use this tragedy as a source of further merriment; something I found tasteless and insensitive. __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
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11-27-2008, 09:14 AM	#2
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Well, whether I would make a joke about it or not ..... any big event in India is going to make me think of the Bollywood Party. I doubt I'm the only one on the LoT who'd make such a connection at the start of the holiday season that will end spectacularly with Bollywood! Depending on the "other item" intersecting with Bollywood, questionable taste might ensue. But let's face it, when has big news out of India ever been good?
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11-27-2008, 09:20 AM	#3
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	It's a party! I think the crossing line is pretty far out there. But here's the example the mystery person used that got me to thinking. Japanese party. Kimonos, Geisha costumes, paper lanterns. Charming, yes? Many guests used glue or something to slant their eyes! Um, wait a minute ... somehow less charming to me, and more mocking. But where is that line, and isn't it different for everybody?
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11-27-2008, 09:49 AM	#4
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	I think the line is all about intent - are you celebrating, or are you mocking? - culturwise anyway Black humor is a whole other thing and I think by definition intentional (or at least potentially) offensive. Time helps soften the blow, would anyone blink at having a mock guillotine at a Bastille Day party? __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-27-2008, 09:53 AM	#7
LSPoorEeyorick scribblin' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: in the moment Posts: 3,872	Yes, exactly, I think the line differs from person to person. And I have no problem with the party - I just wanted to loop in the discussion I had on my other board to try to give some perspective to the situation, as to why someone would feel that way. The Geisha argument is a staple of the anti-cultural-appropriation movement, I think. The first argument I witnessed was started over a pair of Ed Hardy boots with Geisha on them. Several people were strongly, adamantly opposed to them. I just thought they were pretty. We were much at odds - demonstrating exactly that the line is different for everyone.
	Submit to Quotes

11-27-2008, 09:59 AM	#8
Prudence Beelzeboobs, Esq. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gavel - I haz it Posts: 6,287	I think that Americans have a history of "appropriating" aspects of various cultures with no intent to honor or appreciate that culture - sort of a manifest destiny of cultural attributes. As a result, other cultures aren't so likely to take our themed parties as a bumbling sort of respect, but rather a combination of zoo visit and "playing native." Avoiding such theming, on the other hand, might lead back to isolationism. Should I not eat at "ethnic" restaurants because to me the food is "neat-o!" and not routine comfort food my mom used to make? Should I not see foreign language films because I can't appreciate them the same way a native speaker would? Of course not. The best I can do is try to express that I'm following these experiences because I'm genuinely interested in something that I find valuable and worthwhile, and while I'll never have a complete contextual understanding of what it means to be someone I'm not, by attempting to emulate their activities perhaps I will have a better appreciation for the contributions of others - both historic and contemporary. __________________ traguna macoities tracorum satis de
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11-27-2008, 10:03 AM	#9
LSPoorEeyorick scribblin' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: in the moment Posts: 3,872	That was my exact position in that argument, actually. I even used the word "Lederhosen," since the largest portion of my Heinz 57 European background is German. I also understand the reasoning (and try to follow a similar personal pattern as Pru mentioned) but, as always, the extremists baffle me.
	Submit to Quotes

11-27-2008, 10:05 AM	#10
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Well, we all know how much I love dress-up. If that's nasty appropriation for the length of a genial party ... then fvck 'em! Get a grip. However .... the slant-eye thing got to me - because I think my uber-pale vampire complexion is going to look stupid in Indian Garb, and I was actually thinking of darkening my skin with tanning agents for Bollywood night. Uh-oh. Is this a step too far in the wrong direction? To me it's all about fun and fashion play. But I've never been accused of being the most racially sensitive person. Anyway, bring on the guillotine, yes. But hold the burning Taj Mahal for at least a few years.
	Submit to Quotes