Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience? - Page 2

lashbear · 02-17-2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Here's something for the Quotes: I agree with Scaeagles.

Done !

BarTopDancer · 02-17-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Here's something for the Quotes: I agree with Scaeagles. No one should be forced to say the Pledge, and no one should have to say it in school without at least a rudimentary understanding of what it is and means. At the same time, I don't think anyone should be forced to not participate. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but should my kid decide she does I would support her taking a stand, provided she knows it might be a lonely one.

I agree.

Patriotism is a great thing; however forced, blind patriotism is extremely dangerous, and there is a fine line between the two.

The Pledge and National Anthem means more to me as an adult then they ever did as a kid.

Kevy Baby · 02-17-2009, 10:30 AM

Cadaverous Pallor · 02-16-2009, 11:37 PM

I'm very torn about the pledge. Betty likes it more as an adult, and I like it less. I've attended meetings at the City, both large and small, and they include the pledge. Seeing these adults make such a simplistic statement comes off as creepy to me. I can't promise absolute allegiance to anything, because things change. The last 8 years were enough to teach me that. IMHO, part of being an adult is understanding that precious little is black and white.

Even so - I do like the concept of patriotism, and I'm a loyal type of person. I had school spirit even though I was an outcast geek and had no reason to. I do think America as a concept is awesome and has done great things. When you're 10 years old, it's hard to understand the nuances of allegiance and loyalty. I am not opposed to using the pledge as a tool to instill this sort of "we are one group" concept, but somehow, I think as adults we need to have better ways to express it. Perhaps if the wording were changed? (Obviously the Under God part needs to go.)

Hmm, how would I write the pledge...

Betty · 02-17-2009, 07:32 AM

I wouldn't say I like the pledge more as an adult - I would say it means something to me now instead of just reciting the words.

I liked E's description of "communal chanting" actually. That was a very interesting way to word it that really made sense to me.

I also agree on the "under god" part of the pledge. I doubt it will ever happen though for sort of the same reason it was put in there. "Those godless (insert whichever group you prefer) will be the death of us all" type of thought that would make it political suicide for any major policital party to get behind it.

Alex · 02-17-2009, 07:59 AM

Well, the Pledge of Allegiance was written specifically as something for children to say which is part of why I find it creepy for adults to puppet it. But yes, I generally find simple mindless displays of patriotism to be a distasteful thing (and so do most of us which is why when patriotism is expressed in other countries we generally refer to it with the more loaded term "nationalism").

It is too bad, though, that we switched to the hand over the heart instead of the original salute that went with it:

Cadaverous Pallor · 02-17-2009, 08:43 AM

Wait, really?? They really saluted like that??

Wikipedia, which led me to the Bellamy salute:

Quote:

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” At the words, “to my Flag,” the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.

Even without the Nazi connotation it still seems a little creepier...but only because I didn't grow up with it I guess.

ETA - the original pledge was written by a Socialist. Heh.

Alex · 02-17-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Wait, really?? They really saluted like that??

I know! Those stupid Nazis ruined everything!

Pirate Bill · 02-17-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty

They could have have a learning experience by discussing the pledge, her viewpoints, it's history and had a great debate about it.

I totally agree.

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything. It sounds like the teachers involved panicked and didn't deal with it appropriately. By having an open class discussion the teacher would have had the opportunity to explore the meaning behind the pledge. Giving the student an opportunity to give her point of view is not something to be feared either. If she "converts" other students to her cause then they have made that decision with more information instead of just in rebellion to unjust authority.

scaeagles · 02-17-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate Bill

Nobody should be forced to participate in anything.

As I prepare to do my taxes I couldn't agree more!

02-17-2009, 10:30 AM	#3
Kevy Baby Chowder Head Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Yes Posts: 18,500	Should children be forced to stand and say the Pledge of Allegience? Yes __________________ The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot verify their validity. - Abraham Lincoln
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02-16-2009, 11:37 PM	#4
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	I'm very torn about the pledge. Betty likes it more as an adult, and I like it less. I've attended meetings at the City, both large and small, and they include the pledge. Seeing these adults make such a simplistic statement comes off as creepy to me. I can't promise absolute allegiance to anything, because things change. The last 8 years were enough to teach me that. IMHO, part of being an adult is understanding that precious little is black and white. Even so - I do like the concept of patriotism, and I'm a loyal type of person. I had school spirit even though I was an outcast geek and had no reason to. I do think America as a concept is awesome and has done great things. When you're 10 years old, it's hard to understand the nuances of allegiance and loyalty. I am not opposed to using the pledge as a tool to instill this sort of "we are one group" concept, but somehow, I think as adults we need to have better ways to express it. Perhaps if the wording were changed? (Obviously the Under God part needs to go.) Hmm, how would I write the pledge... __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
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02-17-2009, 07:32 AM	#5
Betty Kicking up my heels! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Silver State Posts: 3,783	I wouldn't say I like the pledge more as an adult - I would say it means something to me now instead of just reciting the words. I liked E's description of "communal chanting" actually. That was a very interesting way to word it that really made sense to me. I also agree on the "under god" part of the pledge. I doubt it will ever happen though for sort of the same reason it was put in there. "Those godless (insert whichever group you prefer) will be the death of us all" type of thought that would make it political suicide for any major policital party to get behind it. __________________ Nee Stell Thue
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02-17-2009, 07:59 AM	#6
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Well, the Pledge of Allegiance was written specifically as something for children to say which is part of why I find it creepy for adults to puppet it. But yes, I generally find simple mindless displays of patriotism to be a distasteful thing (and so do most of us which is why when patriotism is expressed in other countries we generally refer to it with the more loaded term "nationalism"). It is too bad, though, that we switched to the hand over the heart instead of the original salute that went with it:
	Submit to Quotes