On Psalm 109 and Faith

[lashbear]

Didn't Scientology believe that "Neither can live as long as the other survives"?


....oh, that was Harry Potter, wasn't it ?

[scaeagles]

I will point out that in Christianity, there is a tremendous difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. In the old covenent with the Jews as the chosen people, it was pretty much kill everyone who stood in the way. After the new covenant, being the death and resurrection of Jesus, the gospel was available to all and there was no more call to completely obliterate all the non chosen. I think that context is frequently lost, even at times among the Christians. I suppose the crusades might be the biggest example of that.

For that reason, unlike with the Quran (though I am NO expert on the Quran, certainly), I beleive that the old testament calls for vengeance, etc, are to be discounted and they are historical in nature, not to be applied today.

Of course this does not mean every Christian thinks that way. It would be a better world if they did.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I will point out that in Christianity, there is a tremendous difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. In the old covenent with the Jews as the chosen people, it was pretty much kill everyone who stood in the way. After the new covenant, being the death and resurrection of Jesus, the gospel was available to all and there was no more call to completely obliterate all the non chosen. I think that context is frequently lost, even at times among the Christians. I suppose the crusades might be the biggest example of that.

For that reason, unlike with the Quran (though I am NO expert on the Quran, certainly), I beleive that the old testament calls for vengeance, etc, are to be discounted and they are historical in nature, not to be applied today.

Of course this does not mean every Christian thinks that way. It would be a better world if they did.

I am, of course, relieved that most Christians agree with you. What I don't understand is why any of them think the old testament god was anything but a monster. (If they really think the old testament is historical and true, that is.) Christians are fond of saying that Jesus/God is unchanging, (the same yesterday, today and forever) but they also seem quiet certain that this god did in fact change for the better.

Anyway, that discussion could go on forever. I will repeat my earlier contention that some of the most frightening curses and imprecations in the OT were very likely written much later than tradition would tell you, and written expressly to freak out post-exile leaders in Israel. As Judaism was busy assimilating itself into the metropolitan culture at large, and temple worship was in steep decline, psalms such as 109 make a lot of sense. They are the voice of reactionaries warning a straying people that they had sure as heck better not anger YHWH, because look at how mad it makes him!

I've also read that many/most of the stories of massive slaughter are almost certainly fictitious, and amount to chest-thumping. ("You guys may be in charge now, but look at what we did to the Midianites a few centuries ago! And we just might do it again!")

Such scholarly revelations, if valid, do much to de-fuse the nastiness of the biblical texts. It beats having to make justifications for a deity who gleefully engages in atrocities.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

I've also read that many/most of the stories of massive slaughter are almost certainly fictitious, and amount to chest-thumping.

This is where faith comes in.

[Strangler Lewis]

Most if not all of the Old Testament killing occurs not because other groups had not been chosen to receive the law or the land. It's because they got in our face.

We remember that in our prayers and in the way we test our fountain pens.

[scaeagles]

Or they were in the way of the conquest of the promised land.

[Alex]

I can't decide if it is a huge improvement for things to move from "we'll kill you ourselves" to "convert or you'll suffer eternal pain and punishment beyond your very capacity to comprehend."

I guess since I consider the latter mythmaking, for me it is an improvement. If I believed in this god I think the latter would be much worse.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Summary: Every major religion has, at some point, abused their position of power and justified atrocities by pointing to documented proof of their divine right to do so. It is independent of the actual content/intent of said documented proof. It is common to all religion because it's common to all people. Religion didn't invent it, religion just makes it easier to justify to the masses.

[scaeagles]

Indeed, this theological discussion could go on ad infinitum, but I will address one thing related to the Christian view of the unchanging nature of God.

The reason the the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary was that God cannot be in the presence of what is determined to be sin. The innocent split blood of Jesus is an eternal sacrifice for that sin (as opposed to the frequent animal sacrifices), atoning for sin for all sinners forever.

I have read (and no, no links at presense - no time to find anything right now) a lot of the archeological history, and in fact, recently watched a really fascinating History channel special on the war tactics of the Isrealites in the Bible. Pretty cool. Wish I could remember the name of it.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Indeed, this theological discussion could go on ad infinitum, but I will address one thing related to the Christian view of the unchanging nature of God.

The reason the the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary was that God cannot be in the presence of what is determined to be sin. The innocent split blood of Jesus is an eternal sacrifice for that sin (as opposed to the frequent animal sacrifices), atoning for sin for all sinners forever.

The day I realized that this was incredibly horrible (and nonsensical) was the beginning of the end for my faith. I don't say that as a challenge or reproach. It's just where my inner thought-life took me. Many more of my family and friends agree with you than agree with me, and I adore them all. But, really, ugh.