Terrorist attacks in London - Page 4

Cadaverous Pallor · 07-07-2005, 04:40 PM

What Prudence said.

I especially have problems with these issues because my family is Jewish. I was born in Israel - my parents lived there for years. You don't want to ask them what they think of Muslims and Islam.

I keep trying to tell myself "they're just people, just like us, and they're trying to protect their culture from invading cultures." We may not write "Death to Arabs" on our walls, but there's plenty of stuff in Christianity (our dominant religion) about persecuting others who don't follow Jesus.

But, but, but! Their religion IS their government! They have no fair trial system! Women's rights are non-existant! Their upper classes keep the lower classes uneducated and poor! They're animals compared to us!!!

And just like Prudence I hate myself for hating them.

I dig what € said about making the masses happier over there. The problem is, the only way to do this is to conquer them and "make them free"...which I obviously can't condone.....can I? My first instinct is that it simply won't work. But simply talking to their leaders isn't going to turn them into democracies. The idea of crushing those dictatorships and ruling classes is so appealing!

The Muslim nations aren't stupid. They are right. If they let American culture and American freedoms into their countries, they will no longer rule with an iron fist. We ARE the enemy, and they should fear us. Not because we're evil, but because we're good.

€uroMeinke · 07-07-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I dig what € said about making the masses happier over there. The problem is, the only way to do this is to conquer them and "make them free"...which I obviously can't condone.....can I?

Is it? That is one way I suppose - I actually wonder if it is possible at all, can poverty ever be eliminated? whatever the long term solution, I'm sure it'll take generations to take, which I think adds to the whole overall squemishness.

mistyisjafo · 07-07-2005, 04:55 PM

All I could think when I heard this happened was "How is this possible!". It's horrifying and devasting to hear so many people have lost their lives or were injured because of crazed people.

scaeagles · 07-07-2005, 06:21 PM

But I still don't see terrorists blowing things up because they are poor. You mentioned earlier that you don't see sheiks strapping bombs to themselves, but you don't see a whole lot of homeless Americans doing it either. You don't see suicide bombings in poverty stricken central American nations or in the huge blighted areas of cities like Rio de Janeiro.

They blow things up because of ideology. Because of hatred. Because they want to limit everyone into their twisted view of Islam and the laws proscribed therein.

It is long term. All change is long term. I think Americans have it so good in a society of microwaves and fastpasses that the processes that take longer seem unfathomable. I am truly thankful that there is no Hitler around today - I don't know if we would have the patience or stomach to fight the war over time that it took to accomplish the job. I am glad America has already been founded, because the 11 year from our Declaration of Independence in 1776 to the passage of a Constitution in 1787 would be seen as an eternity and the attempts to start America would be called a failure.

€uroMeinke · 07-07-2005, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

But I still don't see terrorists blowing things up because they are poor. You mentioned earlier that you don't see sheiks strapping bombs to themselves, but you don't see a whole lot of homeless Americans doing it either. You don't see suicide bombings in poverty stricken central American nations or in the huge blighted areas of cities like Rio de Janeiro.

Yes, but you have drive by shootings, indiscriminate killings, drug problems, etc. - the ideology sells becasue they are disenfranchised, usually economics is a big componant of that - we seldom want to move to a position of less comfort.

If this is a battle of ideology, I'm not sure a military approach is the most successfull. Pop culture may be a far greater weapon and propaganda must be our tool. We have to make the jihadists look foolish and silly, and a waste of good people's time.

SacTown Chronic · 07-08-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

It is long term. All change is long term. I think Americans have it so good in a society of microwaves and fastpasses that the processes that take longer seem unfathomable. I am truly thankful that there is no Hitler around today - I don't know if we would have the patience or stomach to fight the war over time that it took to accomplish the job. I am glad America has already been founded, because the 11 year from our Declaration of Independence in 1776 to the passage of a Constitution in 1787 would be seen as an eternity and the attempts to start America would be called a failure.

I suspect that most American's capacity to stomach a long term battle is directly proportionate to their belief in the cause. For me, a week in Iraq would be equivalent to 50 years of fighting for our independence.

scaeagles · 07-08-2005, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

I suspect that most American's capacity to stomach a long term battle is directly proportionate to their belief in the cause. For me, a week in Iraq would be equivalent to 50 years of fighting for our independence.

I can understand that....but that made me think of something.

I wonder what the opinions of the French were in the 1770s. They had their own domestic issues. I wonder if they thought it worthwhile to be assisting this group of colonists thousands of miles away when only 20% of those colonists wanted freedom from England anyway. Of course, there's no way to know for sure.

The leaders of France saw the bigger picture. It wasn't so much about helping colonists half way around the world as it was about opposition to the British.

I sure am glad they helped us out and saw the bigger picture. I would guess, though, that the French probably lost more then 1700+ in 2.5 years. Again, I can't say for sure - I really don't know.

sleepyjeff · 07-08-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I sure am glad they helped us out and saw the bigger picture. I would guess, though, that the French probably lost more then 1700+ in 2.5 years. Again, I can't say for sure - I really don't know.

600+ at Yorktown alone...........No numbers are available for the entire War.

wendybeth · 07-08-2005, 11:33 PM

See? It all comes back to the French.

However, I fail to see how the Fench involvement in the Revolutionary war compares to this- quite a stretch there, guys. The government of France during the Revolutionary war was still an absolute monarchy, and they were using us every bit as much as we were using them. No ideology at play here at all, gentlemen- just good old fashioned mercenaries. Ironically, their involvement contributed to the downfall of the monarchy and helped to pave the way for their own revolution.

From Wikipedia:
"France, the Netherlands and Spain entered the war against Great Britain in an attempt to dilute Britain's superpower status. France officially entered the war in 1778 and soon sent troops, ships and military equipment to fight alongside the American Patriot army against the British for the remainder of the war. French military involvement in the war proved decisive, though disastrous for the French economy. France's standing army at the time is estimated to have been some 100,000. Spain entered the war in 1779, but did not recognize the new American nation and sent no troops to fight alongside the United States. The Netherlands entered the war late in 1780, but its navy and army was soon overwhelmed by the superior British Royal navy and army."

According to the same submission, the number of Patriots was between 40-50%, while the number of Loyalists was around 15-20%.

scaeagles · 07-07-2005, 07:20 PM

Non-idealogues may perhaps be satisfied with better economic circumstances. But even in America with the drive by shootings and drugs, it isn't always about poverty.

Look at the hip hop music industry. East coast rappers shoot west coast rappers because they were dissed. Just a day ago or so rapper Li'l Kim was convicted of perjury in a case involving just that. These guys are rich.

Similarly, Islamic terrorists will be regardless of economic conditions. Bin Laden is very wealthy (or at least was - I think he was cut off or had assets frozen or something). His twisted version of Islamm, though, says to kill the infidels, and the infidels are those who doesn't believe what he does. The infidels are those that support Israel.

In Iraq, the general populace wants the terrorists to leave. They don't have support of anywhere near even a fair sized minority. The citizens want them gone. The average Iraqi isn't killing US soldiers or blowing up bombs even though conditions are less than ideal. I think the jihadists already look foolish, silly, and barbaric, but that won't change who they are or what they do. They are zealots who don't care what anyone thinks of them.

07-07-2005, 04:40 PM	#1
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	What Prudence said. I especially have problems with these issues because my family is Jewish. I was born in Israel - my parents lived there for years. You don't want to ask them what they think of Muslims and Islam. I keep trying to tell myself "they're just people, just like us, and they're trying to protect their culture from invading cultures." We may not write "Death to Arabs" on our walls, but there's plenty of stuff in Christianity (our dominant religion) about persecuting others who don't follow Jesus. But, but, but! Their religion IS their government! They have no fair trial system! Women's rights are non-existant! Their upper classes keep the lower classes uneducated and poor! They're animals compared to us!!! And just like Prudence I hate myself for hating them. I dig what € said about making the masses happier over there. The problem is, the only way to do this is to conquer them and "make them free"...which I obviously can't condone.....can I? My first instinct is that it simply won't work. But simply talking to their leaders isn't going to turn them into democracies. The idea of crushing those dictatorships and ruling classes is so appealing! The Muslim nations aren't stupid. They are right. If they let American culture and American freedoms into their countries, they will no longer rule with an iron fist. We ARE the enemy, and they should fear us. Not because we're evil, but because we're good. __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
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07-07-2005, 04:55 PM	#3
mistyisjafo A JAFO Production Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Orange, CA Posts: 567	All I could think when I heard this happened was "How is this possible!". It's horrifying and devasting to hear so many people have lost their lives or were injured because of crazed people. __________________
	Submit to Quotes

07-07-2005, 06:21 PM	#4
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	But I still don't see terrorists blowing things up because they are poor. You mentioned earlier that you don't see sheiks strapping bombs to themselves, but you don't see a whole lot of homeless Americans doing it either. You don't see suicide bombings in poverty stricken central American nations or in the huge blighted areas of cities like Rio de Janeiro. They blow things up because of ideology. Because of hatred. Because they want to limit everyone into their twisted view of Islam and the laws proscribed therein. It is long term. All change is long term. I think Americans have it so good in a society of microwaves and fastpasses that the processes that take longer seem unfathomable. I am truly thankful that there is no Hitler around today - I don't know if we would have the patience or stomach to fight the war over time that it took to accomplish the job. I am glad America has already been founded, because the 11 year from our Declaration of Independence in 1776 to the passage of a Constitution in 1787 would be seen as an eternity and the attempts to start America would be called a failure.
	Submit to Quotes

07-08-2005, 11:33 PM	#9
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	See? It all comes back to the French. However, I fail to see how the Fench involvement in the Revolutionary war compares to this- quite a stretch there, guys. The government of France during the Revolutionary war was still an absolute monarchy, and they were using us every bit as much as we were using them. No ideology at play here at all, gentlemen- just good old fashioned mercenaries. Ironically, their involvement contributed to the downfall of the monarchy and helped to pave the way for their own revolution. From Wikipedia: "France, the Netherlands and Spain entered the war against Great Britain in an attempt to dilute Britain's superpower status. France officially entered the war in 1778 and soon sent troops, ships and military equipment to fight alongside the American Patriot army against the British for the remainder of the war. French military involvement in the war proved decisive, though disastrous for the French economy. France's standing army at the time is estimated to have been some 100,000. Spain entered the war in 1779, but did not recognize the new American nation and sent no troops to fight alongside the United States. The Netherlands entered the war late in 1780, but its navy and army was soon overwhelmed by the superior British Royal navy and army." According to the same submission, the number of Patriots was between 40-50%, while the number of Loyalists was around 15-20%. __________________
	Submit to Quotes

07-07-2005, 07:20 PM	#10
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Non-idealogues may perhaps be satisfied with better economic circumstances. But even in America with the drive by shootings and drugs, it isn't always about poverty. Look at the hip hop music industry. East coast rappers shoot west coast rappers because they were dissed. Just a day ago or so rapper Li'l Kim was convicted of perjury in a case involving just that. These guys are rich. Similarly, Islamic terrorists will be regardless of economic conditions. Bin Laden is very wealthy (or at least was - I think he was cut off or had assets frozen or something). His twisted version of Islamm, though, says to kill the infidels, and the infidels are those who doesn't believe what he does. The infidels are those that support Israel. In Iraq, the general populace wants the terrorists to leave. They don't have support of anywhere near even a fair sized minority. The citizens want them gone. The average Iraqi isn't killing US soldiers or blowing up bombs even though conditions are less than ideal. I think the jihadists already look foolish, silly, and barbaric, but that won't change who they are or what they do. They are zealots who don't care what anyone thinks of them.
	Submit to Quotes