Riding crop costumes go bye bye

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Originally Posted by Prudence

Fat people are, by definition, ugly.

Nope. A fat person, by definition, is less attractive than if that same person was not fat. Less Attractive is not the same as Ugly.

And just to clarify, I'm talking about physical attractiveness.

Originally Posted by Prudence

The corollary is that skinny people are presumed attractive

Nope. A skinny person is presumed to be less unattractive than if that same person was fat. Skinny does not equal attractive.

Prudence, while it's impossible to get an accurate reading on one's true feelings via text, I get the impression the nature of this discussion is quite emotional for you and it may be coloring your judgement of the situation. If you'll forgive the unsolicited advice, you might want to take a few steps back, wait a while, and come back when you've had some time to ruminate on the topic. We're you're friends here and I'm positive nobody is attacking you.

[Capt Jack]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

Nope. A fat person, by definition, is less attractive than if that same person was not fat. Less Attractive is not the same as Ugly.

And just to clarify, I'm talking about physical attractiveness.
Nope. A skinny person is presumed to be less unattractive than if that same person was fat. Skinny does not equal attractive.

ok, was gonna stay out of the rest of this but this is just outright wrong.
BY DEFINITION: attractiveness is totally subjective, fat, skinny, black white, green....5 heads or a long scaley tail......please dont attempt to define attractiveness. YOU cannot do so for anyone but YOURSELF.

"A skinny person is presumed to be less unattractive than if that same person was fat. "
what an entirely over the top generalization that I have to say I resent. Please, dont speak for me on such a subject.

[Ponine]

Oh Jack.. I dont think thats what he meant.

Take a deep breath and hang in there. I have never met Sz.. but I think I can say that in no way is that what he was trying to do.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack

BY DEFINITION: attractiveness is totally subjective, fat, skinny, black white, green....5 heads or a long scaley tail......please dont attempt to define attractiveness. YOU cannot do so for anyone but YOURSELF.

You're absolutely right! I can't dictate you what you or any specific person feels. I can report on national averages, or even overwhelming majorities though. When speaking about matters of personal taste, it's inherent in the subject that individual tastes will vary. I sort of figured we were all hip to that and that it didn't need to be mentioned.

To put it a different way, I have never said that every single person in the country likes the taste of chocolate. Obviously some people don't like it, may be allergic to it, etcetera. But it's obvious to pretty much everyone, chocolate is very, very popular. So if I make an egregious generalization that people love chocolate, to me it's assumed that there are exceptions to the rule that are so obvious, they don't need to be stated.

Originally Posted by Capt Jack

what an entirely over the top generalization that I have to say I resent.

By all means, resent it as much as you like. Your or my resentment of a generalization does not change the fact that the generalization may, in fact, be accurate.

Originally Posted by Capt Jack

Please, dont speak for me on such a subject.

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

Just to clarify, my previous comments were not meant to speak for any specific person, merely society as a whole.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

Prudence, while it's impossible to get an accurate reading on one's true feelings via text, I get the impression the nature of this discussion is quite emotional for you and it may be coloring your judgement of the situation. If you'll forgive the unsolicited advice, you might want to take a few steps back, wait a while, and come back when you've had some time to ruminate on the topic. We're you're friends here and I'm positive nobody is attacking you.

And why the hell wouldn't I be emotional? A bunch of people I thought I might be friends with some day are outright advocating employment decisions based on weight -- not because of the objective requirements of the position, but because they'd rather look at skinny people.

Theme park employees should be hotties, because that's what you're paying to go see. Wait staff should be hotties, because that's why you eat out. Receptionists should be hotties because they're the face of the company. And so it goes. If you indulge in that thinking, then regardless of the field or position there is ALWAYS a reason to hire the hottie and not, well, me. If I had a dollar for everytime a prospective employer told me that I just "didn't project the right image...." -- because goodness knows one wants the backroom file clerk to project the right image. But hey, given the choice between the skinny applicant and the fat applicant, why not hire the skinny one? After all, they'll be better to look at day after day.

Obviously it's "the way things are." I experience it every day. However, that doesn't meant that I have to passively accept it, let alone personally perpetuate it.

But I still have to wonder -- if y'all feel that strongly about looking at hot bodies when you're out and about, why would you voluntarily associate with those you know don't make the grade? The message here has been pretty clear -- given the choice, people would rather look at skinny people. There is nothing so fabulous about my personality that would make up for my appearance. I'm not able to shower my friends with riches. Just a big lump of fat with a person somewhere deep down inside.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Originally Posted by Prudence

And why the hell wouldn't I be emotional?

I didn't say you shouldn't be emotional. I suggested your emotions may be coloring your judgement. Here's one example of why I think that:

Originally Posted by Prudence

Wait staff should be hotties, because that's why you eat out.

None has actually said that. Here's what was said: (I added the emphasis)

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

When I go to a restaurant, I'm looking for a good meal and not hotties to ogle.

Do you see what I mean? iSm said one thing and you extrapolated that to be something else. Your emotions, valid as they maybe, appear to be making you see something that's not there.

Originally Posted by Prudence

If you indulge in that thinking, then regardless of the field or position there is ALWAYS a reason to hire the hottie and not, well, me. <snip> Obviously it's "the way things are." I experience it every day. However, that doesn't meant that I have to passively accept it, let alone personally perpetuate it.

I'm going to put this in spoiler text because I know a lot of people are going to HATE to see it. Do not open the box if you are easily offended. (I am not kidding, open at your own risk.!)

Spoiler:

You can also choose not to passively accept that the world is round, but that doesn't change reality. So we as fat folks have a some choices:

• Bitch, moan, and get our feelings hurt
• Change society's perceptions of fat people
• Lose weight

One of those choices is easy, but won't make us feel any better in the long run. The other two are tough, but if accomplished, will make us feel better. But no matter what, it's our choice!

Originally Posted by Prudence

But I still have to wonder -- if y'all feel that strongly about looking at hot bodies when you're out and about, why would you voluntarily associate with those you know don't make the grade?

Because we like you, silly—and don't forget it! Life and friendships aren't just about getting aroused from looking at a hottie. Believe it or not, the vacuous masses here on the LoT can see past physical appearances. And speaking as a fat, bald, and (physically) ugly person, I'm glad they do. I don't give a flying fück if someone at a Park meet is eye-candy. I care that they are fun to hang out with. You, my dear, fit the bill quite nicely.

[hugs]

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

Because we like you, silly—and don't forget it! Life and friendships aren't just about getting aroused from looking at a hottie. Believe it or not, the vacuous masses here on the LoT can see past physical appearances. And speaking as a fat, bald, and (physically) ugly person, I'm glad they do. I don't give a flying fück if someone at a Park meet is eye-candy. I care that they are fun to hang out with. You, my dear, fit the bill quite nicely.

[hugs]

I agree, but I also don't think you are unattractive in any way. I've only seen your avatar, but you have a great smile, fun hair, and a great sense of humor. I can't see the picture very closely, but you look pretty to me. I don't think people are saying, "You're ugly, but we like you anyways." I think it's more like, "We don't care one way or the other. We like you."

[lashbear]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

I'm going to put this in spoiler text because I know a lot of people are going to HATE to see it. Do not open the box if you are easily offended. (I am not kidding, open at your own risk.!)

Spoiler:

You can also choose not to passively accept that the world is round, but that doesn't change reality. So we as fat folks have a some choices:

• Bitch, moan, and get our feelings hurt
• Change society's perceptions of fat people
• Lose weight

One of those choices is easy, but won't make us feel any better in the long run. The other two are tough, but if accomplished, will make us feel better. But no matter what, it's our choice!

The third choice of SM's is Jolly Good Advice. The reason I say this I have decided not to post in THIS thread, as I had intended, because it seems a little off-topic, however PLEASE, PLEASE go and read this thread for futher information:
http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthre...9380#post49380

Love you all.
Rob.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

NOTE: I will use the word "attractive" to mean "the average society standard of attractiveness".

Originally Posted by Prudence

So, to recap:

Disneyland should only employ "hotties" because they're an entertainment business and society doesn't want to look at ugly people.

If you want I can start pulling up studies on attractive people getting better responses than less attractive people. I'll say it again, it's a fact of life. A sad one, but a fact nonetheless.

Fat people are, by definition, ugly. The corollary is that skinny people are presumed attractive, except under certain circumstances particular to the individual.

You say all this as if a) I made it up, b) that it's not true in our society. You just have to go to http://www.hotornot.com to find out exactly what the average (internet enabled) individual thinks is hot or not.

This definition is accepted and unquestioned because it has been granted by the great entity known as "society," and one should never question or try to change society. Rather, one should throw up one's hands and say "it's what society wants." (Note that this usually means "it's what I want," but most people lack sufficient spinal fortitude to admit this and would rather say it's society doing the judging.)

I'll say this AGAIN - I'm not saying that I agree with society's standards. Many of Hollywoods "ideals" are so not my thing. Many of them look like freaks of nature. What people are doing to their bodies with plastic surgery is horrifying, not to mention the high heels/panty hose/plucking/waxing/shaving/makeup/hair dye/manicure stuff. Sure, I do my share of all that, just like any other member of this society. Should I get all pissed if guys think that hairy pits are not sexy? A lot of what society dictates is stupid, but we either deal or get the consequences. I personally wish I didn't have to shave my legs or armpits but I conform, because showing up with shaggy legs in a skirt won't exactly fly at the workplace. I could yell "I'm beautiful even though I have hairy armpits!" but no one would listen to that.

As for me personally -- I'm not into pity "friendships." If I'm not good enough to serve you food or give you directions or process your complaint form or whatever, then why on earth would you want to interact with me socially?

iSm said it perfectly -

Originally Posted by iSm

I have many friends whom I love dearly, but would not hire for certain on-stage roles.

Sczcerbiak, I love you to death, and hate to see you beat yourself up like that. You are quite the handsome man and I'm sure that one day you'll find your knight in shining armor that will match you perfectly.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I could yell "I'm beautiful even though I have hairy armpits!" but no one would listen to that.

Ah, Jenni-san. Don't think so small! What if, say, Martin Luther King Jr. had said "no one would listen"? Not to equate the civil rights movement with the armpit hair movement. But you know what I'm saying.

Besides, Paris has found the hairy armpits sexy for years now. You're just playing to the wrong audience.