Fate and Destiny: a philosophy thread

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works.

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment? Regardless of beliefs I have a sound distaste for righteousness which unfortunately seems to have it's adherents everywhere. Give me a sincere Christian over a righteous atheist any day.

The existence of God is an interesting question, the nature of God infinitely more complex. I'm reading Umberto Ecco's Baudolino right now which spends a lot of time wrapped in discussions of theology and philosophy from a medieval perspective. At times it seems silly recounting the various heresies of the times concerning the divine nature of Christ, the Trinity, the perfection of God, etc. but it's playfulness seems to underscore the impossible task of truely defining who or what God is, especially through the use of logic and reasoning.

[Alex]

You should track down and read The Heavenly City of the Eighteenth-Century Philosphers. It is an old book, essentially a transcription of a series of lectures given by Carl L. Becker at Yale Law School in 1932.

Becker was a philosopher/historian (and in the book he does a great job of illustrating where those disciplines separate). The first part is about how "reason" and "logic" as we know it today to undermine religion is essentially the same thing as used by Dante and Thomas Aquinas to support it.

Part II is about how the 18th century philosphers overthrew Aquinas's "Heavenly City" using logic, reason, and observation (the scientific method), and how they were appalled by where this lead them (a purely mechanical universe without purpose). They then recoiled instinctively and created a new Heavenly City out of "natural law" with posterity playing the role of Jesus.

The whole book is only about 160 pages and is so well written that I think you'd really enjoy it if you haven't already read it. Since it is based on lectures it reads out loud particularly well and whenever I reread it I mostly do so out loud so I can feel the flow and energy of it.

Essentially, it is seeking to dispel the notion that Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, etc. had an essentially modern mindset toward logic, rationality, and atheism.


scaeagles, I never termed my wiring as messed up. It is just the way it is. Just as I think your wiring makes you believe in a god that doesn't exist because evolutionary forces found an advantage in such belief. As we've solidified the post-evolutionary nature of man I think such tendency towards blind faith will slowly dilute and perhaps eventually disappear.

I imagine you would find this the most condescending view of your faith possible: essentially, that you can't help it. (Also, I don't really claim that god doesn't exist, just that until something even remotely suggests such an existence I see no reason to suppose it.)

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment?

Most certainly there are many.

[lizziebith]

Caminante, no hay camino...Se hace camino al andar. -- Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

From a poem I read about 10 years ago... the translation is, roughly: "walker, there is no road...we build the road by walking."

Ever since I read this, I've felt a sense of peace about my crazy life. I never would have thought I'd be the person I am now -- by this I mean: lead the lifestyle I live, hold the job I hold, have the friends/loved ones I have. The younger me would have been aghast. I'm no longer filled with righteous anger, I no longer cling to people in the hopes that said contact might make me whole, I no longer believe ANYTHING to be true, solid, or absolute. And my years of life have made this so. And, dare I say, happy.

I have built my life, as the poem says, by moving through it, and learning from it. I have NEVER pretended to know what was around the bend, and have been, consequentially, both delighted and horrified by what I've found there. But I've NEVER, ever, been bored or disappointed by life. I've watched it unfold, almost like a disinterested observer, and said to myself: "Wow. Never saw THAT coming."

I believe that every experience I have I take on as my "walker's baggage." I can then use it or discard it as needed, as I encounter each new experience. There is no fate, as the future (and past -- my interpretation of it, at least!) doesn't exist, until some weird accident on the part of all the known and unknown forces of the universe, suddenly forges a new path for me.

I put on my little rucksack, and venture forth, hopefully, and with GREAT interest.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Originally Posted by lizziebith

Caminante, no hay camino...Se hace camino al andar. -- Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

From a poem I read about 10 years ago... the translation is, roughly: "walker, there is no road...we build the road by walking."

That just got my little bird heart beating very, very fast. Beautiful!

[Capt Jack]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Did i answer the question?

Sure...as well as it can actually be answered yes. I dont expect "answers" here, just thoughts. Your post more than meets that criteria.

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Tomorrow, I will post something quite different. Told you I was moody.

That seems to follow alot of what Ive found as well. From day to day and even hour to hour, thoughts perceptions and reasoning change with state of mind, emotional state, circumstance etc.

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

My answer: I don't know.

Welcome to my world. I'm not much beyond that point myself....hence the question.


I just realized I never posted my thoughts on the subject.

In many ways, I see the whole concept as a fish swimming in a fast flowing river. the fish holds free will to do as it must or wants within the confines of the river itself, yet the river is unyeilding in its boundaries and flow. the fish can swim upstream or down, side to side, up and down as it wishes and perform whatever actions as it progresses along yet cannot leave the river itself. the river will eventually take the fish to where it is destined to be, one way or another and without regard to actions taken during the journey.

thanks everyone. keep 'em coming. facinating stuff. Ive never had to hit dictionary.com so many times in one thread in my life.

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think I answered the OP questions, so I'll leave it at that.

that you did. thanks

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Like Wendybeth, my opinions on this change according to mood. This leads me to believe that all angles are true to some degree.

I hope to keep this somewhat brief...

I believe in God, and I believe God created the world for us to play in, and the only way to play is to have free will. I can't help but believe in minor miracles though - I do feel that God has helped me out many times over. Just a nudge, once in a while, doesn't cancel out free will....does it?

Destiny is simple - A + B = C. I found the love of my life at 18 yrs old. This means that I decided not to travel the world. It also means I followed him to Orange County. I'm now fulfilling my destiny, here. Had I not met him that year, I probably would have moved to another state or country to seek my fortune (yes, that really was my plan B). And then my destiny would have been far different.

I believe that each of us has the capabilities to be many different people. Everyone's multi-talented - it's just a matter of what you concentrate on. I wouldn't limit my perspective on myself by saying I only had one destiny.

[innerSpaceman]

I have a very cool reminder of my no-coincidences theory of coincidence.

Every few months, usually for a few nights in a row, I will awaken only once in the middle of the night and open my eyes to see my clock display an odd series of numbers. It's either 1:11 a.m. or 2:22 a.m., or it will be 2:34 a.m. or 5:46 a.m. I will not awake at any other time of those nights to see random numbers like 1:37 a.m. or 3:15 a.m. It will only be a sequential series or identical series of numbers, and will happen only once per night, usually for a few nights in a row, and then cease for a few months.

This is my reminder from the universe that seeming coincidences are usually not coincidences at all. It might be presumed that someone with my innate time sence (I rely on no alarm clocks, but awake near 7:00 a.m. each day) might unconsciously be awakening only at times when I know there will be a sequential or identical series of numbers displayed on the clock. But I don't think so. (My 7 o'clock daily awakening can happen roughly anytime from 6:56 a.m to 7:07 a.m. - - thus I presume that my internal time sense is not so precise as to explain the middle-of-the-night clock-talk from God phenomena).




Oh, in the wee hours of this morning, I opened my eyes at exactly 5:55.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Oh, in the wee hours of this morning, I opened my eyes at exactly 5:55.

Wee hours? That's wee hours? Good lord I miss the days of no kids sometimes.....

[Capt Jack]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I have a very cool reminder ........I will awaken only once in the middle of the night and open my eyes to see my clock display an odd series of numbers. It's either 1:11 a.m. or 2:22 a.m., or .....

I could throttle you.

Woke up @ 3:33 am this morning...saw it, thought of your post and started laughing....rendering me even more awake.

so much for what little sleep I was already getting.