The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 503

Ghoulish Delight · 12-08-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

So I suppose it happens to be the intentional choice of those issues to draw specific moral comparison that is problematic and outrageous. I do not believe our medical system to be immoral, yet those things he mentioned clearly were.

I don't consider our medical system immoral, but I consider aspects of our health insurance system immoral. Logical, and prudent for business reasons, but inhumane.

scaeagles · 12-08-2009, 09:46 AM

I am not surprised.

Alex · 12-08-2009, 09:59 AM

I also don't think our current healthcare system is immoral (though I also don't think that of the proposed healthcare system or single-payer government run healthcare). But I'm also pretty sure that in a few decades my saying that will be viewed as woefully misguided and Reid's view will likely be accepted as basically correct by most people.

That said, my objection to Reid's statement is that it is one without meaningful content. Essentially he said "every controversial legislative change made in this country has had people saying 'let's not do this right now and not in this way.'"

Duh. If there weren't, it wouldn't be controversial.

All that said, I'd say it is a substantively different comment (even if devoid of any real content) form drawing connections between the current proposals and Nazi-ism. You can debate whether mandated health insurance for all will one day be seen widely as an obviously good and necessary change to have been made. You can not, however, say that government controlled healthcare (which in it's current incarnation none of the proposed bills currently create anyway) is a step towards Nazi-ism. It may be something in common but it is no more a causal link than is a government-funded highway system an inevitable step towards Hitler's Germany.

So drawing connections between it and Nazis is spurious on its face in a way I'd argue differs significantly from drawing connections between the future perception of this debate and other examples from American history.

All of that said (again), of course Reid is trying to lay a mental connection between opposing healthcare and opposing the Civil Rights Act. It's a dirty rhetorical trick. But it is on more solid ground (and orders of magnitude less hysterical) than Nazii comparisons.

scaeagles · 12-08-2009, 10:42 AM

Oh good lord....where did I say any such thing? All I did is say it is offensive to compare opposition to this particular health care reform bill to opposition to the abolishment of slaery or denying women the vote. Geez. Get off it. NOWHERE did I say nor did I even suggest that I am more deserving than you.

Does your situation suck? Yeah, it does. Does that mean I have to think this particular way of going about health care reform is great or I am like someone who doesn't think slavery is that bad?

THAT, Betty, is what is offensive.

Don't pretend you know me or what I have been through in my life. I happened to have been one of those kids like yours when I was growing up.

Betty · 12-08-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Oh good lord....where did I say any such thing? All I did is say it is offensive to compare opposition to this particular health care reform bill to opposition to the abolishment of slaery or denying women the vote. Geez. Get off it. NOWHERE did I say nor did I even suggest that I am more deserving than you.

Does your situation suck? Yeah, it does. Does that mean I have to think this particular way of going about health care reform is great or I am like someone who doesn't think slavery is that bad?

THAT, Betty, is what is offensive.

Don't pretend you know me or what I have been through in my life. I happened to have been one of those kids like yours when I was growing up.

We've been through this before and I believe you said something along the lines that there wouldn't be enough doctors for you if everyone gets health care... you would have to wait too long... etc...

And frankly - I think access to health care IS up there with voting and slavery. After all - you can't vote if you're dead.

scaeagles · 12-08-2009, 11:02 AM

I did say there would be a doctor shortage, but a doctor shortage for everyone, not just me.

Betty · 12-08-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I did say there would be a doctor shortage, but a doctor shortage for everyone, not just me.

And as it stands now - I have a pretty severe doctor shortage and you don't. So yeah - I'm jealous and mad about it. My point is that you have the luxury of time and don't seem to feel the same urgency that someone like myself does.

JWBear · 12-08-2009, 11:30 AM

Something that those who are still comfortably ensconced in their middle-class lives (and that includes me) need to realize is that, the way things are going, there will not be a comfortable middle-class much longer. This country is rapidly being polarized into a very very wealthy minority ruling over a vast population of the poor.

€uroMeinke · 12-08-2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear

This country is rapidly being polarized into a very very wealthy minority ruling over a vast population of the poor.

Ah but that's when revolutions come and reset the balance - and the wealthy bourgeois intellectuals are put to death

flippyshark · 12-09-2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Ah but that's when revolutions come and reset the balance - and the wealthy bourgeois intellectuals are put to death

Alas, revolutions are often won by violent power-hungry people who are likely to be as bad as or worse than the tyrants they displace. See the wonderful Sergio Leone film Duck, You Sucker! for a terrific musing on this.

12-08-2009, 09:46 AM	#2
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I am not surprised.
	Submit to Quotes

12-08-2009, 09:59 AM	#3
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I also don't think our current healthcare system is immoral (though I also don't think that of the proposed healthcare system or single-payer government run healthcare). But I'm also pretty sure that in a few decades my saying that will be viewed as woefully misguided and Reid's view will likely be accepted as basically correct by most people. That said, my objection to Reid's statement is that it is one without meaningful content. Essentially he said "every controversial legislative change made in this country has had people saying 'let's not do this right now and not in this way.'" Duh. If there weren't, it wouldn't be controversial. All that said, I'd say it is a substantively different comment (even if devoid of any real content) form drawing connections between the current proposals and Nazi-ism. You can debate whether mandated health insurance for all will one day be seen widely as an obviously good and necessary change to have been made. You can not, however, say that government controlled healthcare (which in it's current incarnation none of the proposed bills currently create anyway) is a step towards Nazi-ism. It may be something in common but it is no more a causal link than is a government-funded highway system an inevitable step towards Hitler's Germany. So drawing connections between it and Nazis is spurious on its face in a way I'd argue differs significantly from drawing connections between the future perception of this debate and other examples from American history. All of that said (again), of course Reid is trying to lay a mental connection between opposing healthcare and opposing the Civil Rights Act. It's a dirty rhetorical trick. But it is on more solid ground (and orders of magnitude less hysterical) than Nazii comparisons.
	Submit to Quotes

12-08-2009, 10:42 AM	#4
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Oh good lord....where did I say any such thing? All I did is say it is offensive to compare opposition to this particular health care reform bill to opposition to the abolishment of slaery or denying women the vote. Geez. Get off it. NOWHERE did I say nor did I even suggest that I am more deserving than you. Does your situation suck? Yeah, it does. Does that mean I have to think this particular way of going about health care reform is great or I am like someone who doesn't think slavery is that bad? THAT, Betty, is what is offensive. Don't pretend you know me or what I have been through in my life. I happened to have been one of those kids like yours when I was growing up.
	Submit to Quotes

12-08-2009, 11:02 AM	#6
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I did say there would be a doctor shortage, but a doctor shortage for everyone, not just me.
	Submit to Quotes

12-08-2009, 11:30 AM	#8
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	Something that those who are still comfortably ensconced in their middle-class lives (and that includes me) need to realize is that, the way things are going, there will not be a comfortable middle-class much longer. This country is rapidly being polarized into a very very wealthy minority ruling over a vast population of the poor. __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
	Submit to Quotes