Politically charged Quote of the Day (and ... The Meaning of Life)

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

...Kevy's comment that we should open ourselves up to faith and I'm really curious how one does that without letting in every faith-based idea that exists. It seems the answer is to first decide what you want you're going to believe and then open yourself up to believing that.

I don't think it's so much first deciding what you are going to believe rather than first deciding what you are not going to outright deny. I think that's an important distinction that is more than semantical.

If, for example, you are an atheist ... but decide to not outright deny the existence of a "higher power" or "god," you may - or may not - over the course of months or years have a series of experiences which leave you in doubt of your atheistic stance. If, however, you steadfastly deny the existence of a higher power and defend your atheism staunchly by viewing all experiences through an atheistically-filtered perception, you will almost certainly not have any experiences which comflict with your comfortably atheistic stance.


I can't speak for Kevy, but that's what I think he meant by opening yourself up. You do not need to decide to affirmatively believe in ghosts, but you must be willing to consider the idea if you become haunted by dead people.

[Alex]

I'm still not seeing a non-semantical difference. Because it seems awfully coincidental that the spirituality you "experienced" matched well with what you were already open to. It's not like you were feeling the world was a connected place but ended up with evidence of a wrathful monotheistic deity determined to keep mankind crushed beneath his bootheel.

But then again, it is hard for me to talk since I've never experienced anything that seemed the slightest bit spiritual or religious or supernatural. If such exist, they apparently have no interest in me. The Fran Lebowitz quote I mentioned earlier (or in another thread) was about how for her "spirituality" just confused her. It is a concept with zero meaning to her. Same for me. I don't deny the existence of a higher power, I've just never seen any reason to suppose one exists.

But I'm still not clear on how you decide which articles of faith are serious and which are simply silly and signs of a delusional mind. Surely you don't believe all things "taken on faith" by all the people of the world are equally valid simply because the people claim to have experienced them in some way?

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

it is hard for me to talk since I've never experienced anything that seemed the slightest bit spiritual or religious or supernatural. If such exist, they apparently have no interest in me.

Ah, but is that simply the result of the supernatural vicious circle? Do ghosts leave you a wide berth only because you have no interest in them, while they feel affinity with, and gravite to, people who hold seances?

I don't think you necessarily need to have personal experiences to convince you of faith-based ideas. Outright denial, however, can "push" such things away from your experience, as can plain old disinterest. But it needn't actually "happen" to you.


Example 1 - Ghosts: At one time, I did not particularly believe in ghosts. I thought it was an absurdly silly concept. I still do. Yet, I was not in such steadfast refusal about it that I bent over backwards to avoid ghostly supernaturalisms. Then I lived for a while in a haunted house. Ghosts exist. Either that, or something exists that humans have, throughout history, interpreted (reasonably so, imo) as the spirits of dead people.

If I had been steadfast in my refusal to believe in ghosts, I could have twistedly rationalized my personal haunting experiences to be caused by sunspots. But since I remained open to it ... I more rationally interpreted them to be what people call "ghosts." And have acknowledged that all rational signs pointed to the improbability of dead-people-spirits, absurdly silly as that may be.


Example 2 - Space Aliens: I have pretty much never believed in UFOs or little green men. I think it is an absurdly silly concept. And I have never personally experienced anything to sway me otherwise. Yet, a decent amount of personal research on the subject has convinced me that something legitimately weird is going on vis-a-vis the subject of space aliens, and that mass delusions are not the simple answer. Rather there is something going on that people, reasonably imo, are interpreting as "space aliens."



These are two supernaturalistic belief systems I now buy into; one through personal experience, and one through mere information. In both cases, I let whatever happens in my life determine which stuff I will be open to, and thus may or may not come to believe in or ascribe to. For all I know, stygmata may be a legitimate phenonmen ... but nothing has happened in my life to bring it to my attention. I remain skeptical, but not closed-minded, about it ... and about pretty much all outlandish or supernatural phenomena.

But I don't drive such phenomena away by refusing it or ignoring it.

[Not Afraid]

What is truth anyways? There's a whole other discussion.

Alex, I think it comes down to this; either you are the higher power in your life or you are not. Personally, I like not having to be the higher power in my own life. The attached religious beliefs are extra spice to the basic tennets of belief or non belief in a higher power.

[innerSpaceman]

^ editor's note: just changed "of" to "or." I mostly leave NA's charming typo style alone, but correct something once in a while to preserve her meaning ... especially when her meaning is so perceptive.

[Gemini Cricket]

troublemaker's note: For fun, I just changed "I" to "robot pirates" in iSm's post.

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

But are your own personal experiences any more of a leap of faith than if you had no such experiences?

Like Kevy, robot pirates have been into Wicca, as it is a body of beliefs and expressions that tapped into energies robot pirates have most definitely experienced. Yet, robot pirates cannot "prove" or demonstrate in any way that those experiences were not themselves delusional.

Robot pirates know they have not been. But is the faith robot pirates have in spiritual energy any more grounded in truth if it's based on my personal experience rather than being based on an idea robot pirates drew out of a hat?

Why did I do that? Because maybe life isn't all about taking everything so seriously. And because it's funny.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

troublemaker's note: For fun, I just changed "I" to "robot pirates" in iSm's post.

There is not enough mojo in the world to give GC all the mojo he deserves

[Not Afraid]

I believe in Peanut Butter.

[Gemini Cricket]

Do you believe in life after love?

[innerSpaceman]

Well, when I say I'm open to the supernatural, I didn't exactly mean I'm open to being easily fooled by nonsense! There's a difference, heheheh.

As an example, the kitchen cabinets that flew open with foodstuffs spewing all the way across the room as I watched could have been an earthquake that I didn't feel and that affected nothing else. It could have been earthquakes each of the three times I saw this, and the two times I saw other cabinets open seemingly by themselves (but with no tossing spillage).

The footsteps and voices constantly heard through this apartment could have been sounds from other parts of the villa, moving through the heating vents or something. And the creaks moving up and down the stairs heard plainly emanating from the very wood of the stairs could have been some combination of settling and sound transferrence. Uh-huh.

But the letters E V A being drawn by an invisible finger in a steam-clouded mirror as I looked on in wonder would have been very difficult to rationalize away. And so I didn't.

The case for ghosts was later bolstered when I learned that a previous occupant of the apartment was named "Eva." But that was not necessary for my new belief in "ghosts;" the evidence of my own eyes was enough.


Where to put that threshhold is different for everyone. I can't exactly jeer at lights in the sky freakouts or juevenile bigfoot speed sightings when I myself have taken to "belief" in certain spiritual energies that I have only felt internally.

But of the things I have taken to believing in, nothing has since happened to make me feel the fool or recant my beliefs in many things quite supernatural and metaphysical.