Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza - Page 2

scaeagles · 07-13-2006, 12:58 PM

You cannot have peace with those who do not wish to have peace with you.
In spite of the long and dirty past, and it is certainly so, various groups backed by governments - be they Hezbollah and Iran and Syria or Hamas in the Palestinian areas or whatever group and sponsor - want the extermination of Israel and have stated as much. Clinton brokered one incredible deal at one point, where 96% of disputed lands would be given to the Palestinians. Arafat rejected this because of pressure from terrorist factions. The controlling groups do not want peace. They want the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew.

I would not be at all surprised if the Hezbollah activities are at present being orchestrated by the leader of Iran.

I am encouraged that Egypt and the Saudis have thus far stayed out of this. If they remain detached, I think it possible that it can be contained to the immediate area. Israel isn't one to mess around, as previous wars have demonstrated. It is possible they will completely level Lebanon and Syria.

Not Afraid · 07-13-2006, 01:06 PM

"The Archduke Ferdinand of our time" is a horrific statement. It sent chills thru my spine.

Morrigoon · 07-13-2006, 01:54 PM

Isreal doesn't exactly go out of its way to make friends either. I often feel like our support of Israel is a bit of a "dirty compromise".... we have to support them because otherwise they'd all be dead, but because of our support, I feel they often overstep their bounds, and then we look like jerks for condoning their behavior.

Prudence · 07-13-2006, 02:00 PM

It seems a shrewd move by Hezbollah/Hamas. The US, Israel's strongest ally, is distracted by difficult situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and world opinion of the US is at a very low ebb. The UN security council is busy with weapons programs in Iran and North Korea. The new Israeli PM doesn't seem to have the same international status as Sharon (I had to look up Olmert's name). And Hamas has increased status in Palestinian territory. If there was ever a time to instigate trouble, this is it.

Also, with the building of the wall and the pull-out from Gaza, Israel hasn't been properly fulfilling its assigned role as neighborhood bully. So, gotta do something to provoke the response that will justify renewed conflict.

I don't know if continued escalation is inevitable, but it at least seems like a very real possibility. And I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not particularly fond of people blowing up other people, and if they really must do that I wish they'd go somewhere with fewer historical treasures. However, I also think that no substantial improvements will be made in that region until the more moderate countries are jolted out of the tendency to frame conflicts as isolated, unrelated actions and forced to take a firm, public stance - and back it up with actions. Is this the provocation that will lead to that action? I don't know.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 03:07 PM

Make friends? When they are surrounded- quite literally- by countries that want them annihilated and wiped off the map?

Gosh- imagine not wanting to try to "make friends".

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 07:39 PM

Get lost, then.

I'd hate being uprooted as much as the next guy. But since it seems almost inevitable that for Israel to gain any sort of permanent peace, it would be necessary to kill every Arab within a 500-mile radius and sew their lands with salt .... I think it thus becomes the duty of every Israeli ... to leave. To abandon the concept of Israel, to abandon a land where all your neighbors want you dead, to accept surrender rather than become a destroyer.

Who can want to live in a nation that can only be maintained by constant violence? Just leave. Come to California if you must. Get out.

Why wait until your country is forced to go beyond the daily rations of civilian killings it perpetrates at the moment? There is no end to be imagined other than either abandonment of Israel or destruction of the arab states around it.

If the United States were facing the prospect of killing every man, woman and child in Canada and Mexico for its own national security, who here would remain a U.S. citizen?

Difficult choices, yes. But Israel is dealing with the most difficult of times. And everyone knows they will only get worse, and worse, and worse.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 08:26 PM

Leave? Walk away from the land they believe is their by right? By Divine Hand? Give up their faith?

Alex · 07-13-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Leave? Walk away from the land they believe is their by right? By Divine Hand? Give up their faith?

The people who were there when Israel returned perhaps feel that way too.

Israel is a country created out of guilt and by screwing with people the West cared about even less than Jews.

It was a mistake, but one not reasily rectified at this point. It is brutal to say but perhaps it is best to just let them all shoot at each other until they come to their own conclusion rather than forcing them to sit at tables doing nothing for decades while rage simmers in the young.

Nephythys · 07-14-2006, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

The people who were there when Israel returned perhaps feel that way too.

Israel is a country created out of guilt and by screwing with people the West cared about even less than Jews.

It was a mistake, but one not reasily rectified at this point. It is brutal to say but perhaps it is best to just let them all shoot at each other until they come to their own conclusion rather than forcing them to sit at tables doing nothing for decades while rage simmers in the young.

I suppose I should understand someone who is an athiest ignoring the Biblical history of Israel- it was not created out of guilt. We did not give them anything-

Alex · 07-14-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I suppose I should understand someone who is an athiest ignoring the Biblical history of Israel- it was not created out of guilt. We did not give them anything-

I'm not ignoring it, but oddly I don't use the Bible as a handbook for modern geopolitics. The Biblical history is the hook on which the claim to the land is made, guilt (I'm not talking about WWII but the pogroms of the late 1800s that eventually lead to the Balfour Declaration) and anti-semitism (some factions saw it as a way to get the Jews out of their country) is the reason the Western world gave it to them.

As a practical result, I pretty much agree with wendybeth. Israel is there and it has a right to defend itself. But it is a problem created by sloppy thinking 60-80 years ago and the beef on both sides is easy to understand. Attempts to force Israelites out of their homes are seen as an act of violence while generally ignoring the original act of violence (in the sense that territorial confiscation is considered an act of violence) that initially put them in those homes.

But if god wants the Jews to have Israel it is another example of this deity's general stupidity that they can only have it by being in a perpetual state of war or semi-war. And it was just plain spiteful of it to let other people live there for 2,000 years before giving it back. Frankly, I don't see what it is that you like about this god, it's something of a prick.

07-13-2006, 12:58 PM	#1
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	You cannot have peace with those who do not wish to have peace with you. In spite of the long and dirty past, and it is certainly so, various groups backed by governments - be they Hezbollah and Iran and Syria or Hamas in the Palestinian areas or whatever group and sponsor - want the extermination of Israel and have stated as much. Clinton brokered one incredible deal at one point, where 96% of disputed lands would be given to the Palestinians. Arafat rejected this because of pressure from terrorist factions. The controlling groups do not want peace. They want the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew. I would not be at all surprised if the Hezbollah activities are at present being orchestrated by the leader of Iran. I am encouraged that Egypt and the Saudis have thus far stayed out of this. If they remain detached, I think it possible that it can be contained to the immediate area. Israel isn't one to mess around, as previous wars have demonstrated. It is possible they will completely level Lebanon and Syria.
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07-13-2006, 01:06 PM	#2
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	"The Archduke Ferdinand of our time" is a horrific statement. It sent chills thru my spine.
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07-13-2006, 01:54 PM	#3
Morrigoon I throw stones at houses Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Location: Location Posts: 9,534	Isreal doesn't exactly go out of its way to make friends either. I often feel like our support of Israel is a bit of a "dirty compromise".... we have to support them because otherwise they'd all be dead, but because of our support, I feel they often overstep their bounds, and then we look like jerks for condoning their behavior. __________________ http://bash.org/?top "It is useless for sheep to pass a resolution in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion." -- William Randolph Inge
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07-13-2006, 02:00 PM	#4
Prudence Beelzeboobs, Esq. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gavel - I haz it Posts: 6,287	It seems a shrewd move by Hezbollah/Hamas. The US, Israel's strongest ally, is distracted by difficult situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and world opinion of the US is at a very low ebb. The UN security council is busy with weapons programs in Iran and North Korea. The new Israeli PM doesn't seem to have the same international status as Sharon (I had to look up Olmert's name). And Hamas has increased status in Palestinian territory. If there was ever a time to instigate trouble, this is it. Also, with the building of the wall and the pull-out from Gaza, Israel hasn't been properly fulfilling its assigned role as neighborhood bully. So, gotta do something to provoke the response that will justify renewed conflict. I don't know if continued escalation is inevitable, but it at least seems like a very real possibility. And I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not particularly fond of people blowing up other people, and if they really must do that I wish they'd go somewhere with fewer historical treasures. However, I also think that no substantial improvements will be made in that region until the more moderate countries are jolted out of the tendency to frame conflicts as isolated, unrelated actions and forced to take a firm, public stance - and back it up with actions. Is this the provocation that will lead to that action? I don't know. __________________ traguna macoities tracorum satis de
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07-13-2006, 03:07 PM	#5
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	Make friends? When they are surrounded- quite literally- by countries that want them annihilated and wiped off the map? Gosh- imagine not wanting to try to "make friends".
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07-13-2006, 07:39 PM	#6
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Get lost, then. I'd hate being uprooted as much as the next guy. But since it seems almost inevitable that for Israel to gain any sort of permanent peace, it would be necessary to kill every Arab within a 500-mile radius and sew their lands with salt .... I think it thus becomes the duty of every Israeli ... to leave. To abandon the concept of Israel, to abandon a land where all your neighbors want you dead, to accept surrender rather than become a destroyer. Who can want to live in a nation that can only be maintained by constant violence? Just leave. Come to California if you must. Get out. Why wait until your country is forced to go beyond the daily rations of civilian killings it perpetrates at the moment? There is no end to be imagined other than either abandonment of Israel or destruction of the arab states around it. If the United States were facing the prospect of killing every man, woman and child in Canada and Mexico for its own national security, who here would remain a U.S. citizen? Difficult choices, yes. But Israel is dealing with the most difficult of times. And everyone knows they will only get worse, and worse, and worse.
	Submit to Quotes

07-13-2006, 08:26 PM	#7
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	Leave? Walk away from the land they believe is their by right? By Divine Hand? Give up their faith?
	Submit to Quotes