Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza - Page 3

Not Afraid · 07-14-2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Frankly, I don't see what it is that you like about this god, it's something of a prick.

Beautiful!

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 08:28 PM

They can "believe" anything they choose to.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 08:31 PM

In which case you should have no problem with them choosing to believe in defending their country.

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 08:54 PM

At all costs? Even the cost of their very souls?

For a nation which lays claim to its land by virtue of God's decree, the matter of the soul might weigh even more heavily than otherwise.

BarTopDancer · 07-13-2006, 08:54 PM

I'm not sure that in the end Isreal will remain Israel, and if the citizens of that country do not leave they could be destroyed. It's something we have not seen in our lifetime but it is something that could happen. Israel is far outnumbered in its immediate area with people who want to see it destroyed then who want to see them suceed.

Though the prospect of the citizens of Israel fleeing their country is a sad one, it is also scary. For if the people who want to see Israel destroyed also want to see the US destroyed. And if Israel abandons their land, those people will see it as a victory and may take that momentum to again launch their attack on the US.

I don't think there is a good solution to this.

scaeagles · 07-13-2006, 09:50 PM

I suppose it all depends on what you feel is worth fighting for.

I can't necessarily quantify what I would fight for or die for, more thigns certainly falling in the fight for category.

I suppose that during our own Revolutionary War the same thing came into question. Was it worth fighting and dieing for? Was the loss of life worth freedom from the oppressive nature of England?

Throughout history cultures have clashed or been forced to defend themselves from aggressors. Cultures have been obliterated or assimilated, but I can't recall any just packing up and leaving.

I think Israel would live at peace with their neighbors if given the chance. They have been (see the previous reference to the Clinton brokered land for peace deal), but their neighbors have refused.

Some say violence begets violence. That's true to an extent. But a lack of response to violence leads to more violence as the aggressors gain confidence that they will be unopposed and their actions will cost them nothing.

Alex · 07-13-2006, 10:39 PM

Not many have just up and left, but then there haven't been many countries created by international accord and completely disregarding the wishes of the poeple already living there.

Actually, there are a fair number of such things but in pretty much every case they are nearly universally abhorred.

I'm guessing if the United Nations came round and said "We're giving Seattle back to the Shoshone, everybody just cope with it" 50 years on there'd likely be an active resistance to this. The Shoshone would be saying "we would live in peace if everybody would just go along with our view of things," scaeagles and Nyphythys would would support the resistance and iSm would say "just move out" to the Seattlites (but only because the Shoshone promise to restore Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion to the glory they once were).

I had a point in there but I seem to have lost it. Oh yeah, looking to historical precent for how to behave here isn't really instructive since there is not really any historic presedent for the issue.

Israel exists, though it really shouldn't. Now that it does, it has the right to protect itself. It has plenty of just cause for the paranoia that has gripped it since pretty much its rebirth. The Arabs also have valid cause for being pretty angry about the existence of Israel. Yet again, I can understand motivations without agreeing with behaviors.

What we should just do is go to Israel and say "we're very sorry, we acted in a moment of guilt when we gave you this land and it was wrong of us. Could we offer you Arizona instead? It has pretty much everything your current territory has (except beaches and olive trees) and the Navajo aren't nearly so heavily armed."

innerSpaceman · 07-14-2006, 07:05 AM

Well, where is God then?

Where was God during the Crusades? Where is God during the Intefadeh? God has long, long, long ago abandoned Jerusalem ... it's high time the jews followed suit.

Feh on being the Chosen People. Chosen for such horrors and demons. It's one thing to suffer violence and death, quite another to suffer becoming the very nazis you claimed to repudiate and loathe.

Get out.

scaeagles · 07-14-2006, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

It's one thing to suffer violence and death, quite another to suffer becoming the very nazis you claimed to repudiate and loathe.

Did you really just compare Israel to Nazi Germany? I'm really not referring to the distastefulness of it, but more to the actual geopolitical situation. Israel isn't looking to exterminate or displace, just survive.

Moonliner · 07-14-2006, 07:41 AM

Hopefully the G8 can bring some pressure to calm things down for a bit. Otherwise this will grow like a wildfire.

Already Israel is making noise that Iran is behind the latest Hezbollah actions (ie kidnapping the soldiers). Iran is being pressured on nuclear research and they are pushing back by having Hezbollah turn up the heat with actions like kidnapping soldiers. If the leaders of Israel believes this, and reports I've seen here in DC indicate they do, how long will it be before Israel strikes out at Iran?

07-13-2006, 08:28 PM	#2
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	They can "believe" anything they choose to.
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07-13-2006, 08:31 PM	#3
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	In which case you should have no problem with them choosing to believe in defending their country.
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07-13-2006, 08:54 PM	#4
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	At all costs? Even the cost of their very souls? For a nation which lays claim to its land by virtue of God's decree, the matter of the soul might weigh even more heavily than otherwise.
	Submit to Quotes

07-13-2006, 08:54 PM	#5
BarTopDancer Prepping... Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Here, there, everywhere Posts: 11,405	I'm not sure that in the end Isreal will remain Israel, and if the citizens of that country do not leave they could be destroyed. It's something we have not seen in our lifetime but it is something that could happen. Israel is far outnumbered in its immediate area with people who want to see it destroyed then who want to see them suceed. Though the prospect of the citizens of Israel fleeing their country is a sad one, it is also scary. For if the people who want to see Israel destroyed also want to see the US destroyed. And if Israel abandons their land, those people will see it as a victory and may take that momentum to again launch their attack on the US. I don't think there is a good solution to this. __________________ Spork is the new MacGyver Postcards From My Edge
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07-13-2006, 09:50 PM	#6
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I suppose it all depends on what you feel is worth fighting for. I can't necessarily quantify what I would fight for or die for, more thigns certainly falling in the fight for category. I suppose that during our own Revolutionary War the same thing came into question. Was it worth fighting and dieing for? Was the loss of life worth freedom from the oppressive nature of England? Throughout history cultures have clashed or been forced to defend themselves from aggressors. Cultures have been obliterated or assimilated, but I can't recall any just packing up and leaving. I think Israel would live at peace with their neighbors if given the chance. They have been (see the previous reference to the Clinton brokered land for peace deal), but their neighbors have refused. Some say violence begets violence. That's true to an extent. But a lack of response to violence leads to more violence as the aggressors gain confidence that they will be unopposed and their actions will cost them nothing.
	Submit to Quotes

07-13-2006, 10:39 PM	#7
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Not many have just up and left, but then there haven't been many countries created by international accord and completely disregarding the wishes of the poeple already living there. Actually, there are a fair number of such things but in pretty much every case they are nearly universally abhorred. I'm guessing if the United Nations came round and said "We're giving Seattle back to the Shoshone, everybody just cope with it" 50 years on there'd likely be an active resistance to this. The Shoshone would be saying "we would live in peace if everybody would just go along with our view of things," scaeagles and Nyphythys would would support the resistance and iSm would say "just move out" to the Seattlites (but only because the Shoshone promise to restore Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion to the glory they once were). I had a point in there but I seem to have lost it. Oh yeah, looking to historical precent for how to behave here isn't really instructive since there is not really any historic presedent for the issue. Israel exists, though it really shouldn't. Now that it does, it has the right to protect itself. It has plenty of just cause for the paranoia that has gripped it since pretty much its rebirth. The Arabs also have valid cause for being pretty angry about the existence of Israel. Yet again, I can understand motivations without agreeing with behaviors. What we should just do is go to Israel and say "we're very sorry, we acted in a moment of guilt when we gave you this land and it was wrong of us. Could we offer you Arizona instead? It has pretty much everything your current territory has (except beaches and olive trees) and the Navajo aren't nearly so heavily armed."
	Submit to Quotes

07-14-2006, 07:05 AM	#8
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Well, where is God then? Where was God during the Crusades? Where is God during the Intefadeh? God has long, long, long ago abandoned Jerusalem ... it's high time the jews followed suit. Feh on being the Chosen People. Chosen for such horrors and demons. It's one thing to suffer violence and death, quite another to suffer becoming the very nazis you claimed to repudiate and loathe. Get out.
	Submit to Quotes

07-14-2006, 07:41 AM	#10
Moonliner 8/30/14 - Disneyland -10k or Bust. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 9,022	Hopefully the G8 can bring some pressure to calm things down for a bit. Otherwise this will grow like a wildfire. Already Israel is making noise that Iran is behind the latest Hezbollah actions (ie kidnapping the soldiers). Iran is being pressured on nuclear research and they are pushing back by having Hezbollah turn up the heat with actions like kidnapping soldiers. If the leaders of Israel believes this, and reports I've seen here in DC indicate they do, how long will it be before Israel strikes out at Iran? __________________ - Taking it one step at a time.
	Submit to Quotes