Do you believe in God?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Some years ago, I received a subscription to a magazine called "Moment." It would have "thoughtful" essays on controversial moral issues. Somehow, the author always managed to conclude that Jewish teaching stated the correct result.

What's your point? I never claimed that following Jewish teaching equals complete open-mindedness. It simply encourages questions. Of course, the hope is that those questions lead to answers that remain within the faith, but that's left up to the individual. So you're reading someone who agrees with those conclusions. No surprise that they're going to lead you to those conclusions.

But the fact remains that the first step in a Jewish boy's (and, in modern practice girl's) adult life is defined by the moment they read Torah by themself for the first time. That is the act that defines them as an adult and creates a covenant with God. And it always has. I find that a very powerful statement, especially contrasted with the history of Christianity in which only the priveledged were given the opportunity to read the Bible for themselves. It took acts of rebellion for it to be translated into a form readable by the masses. Self-exploration is mandated by Torah.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Self-exploration is mandated by Torah.

I'm not sure that the Self had been invented when the Torah was written. To be sure, Jews were exhorted to examine how they had fallen away from the law. However, the Torah as interpreted by the Talmud is supposed to provide the answer to every situation. While this may be an exercise requiring rigorous study, I don't think it remotely equates to open-mindedness, as we understand it. I think that openmindedness, i.e., rejection of tradition, is more a cultural product of numerous beatdowns, emigration and self-interested assimilation.

Perhaps understandably, Jews are reluctant to say that any portion of the law was wrong, the same way that we readily say that American slave owners were wrong. The nasty parts are always dismissed as primitive, tribal or needing to be put in context. Further, while there are Jewish groups that take this position, if you want to see liberal Jews' hair stand on end and their minds snap shut like dominoes, tell them that you think circumcision is wrong.

[Alex]

When I think of the watchmaker god, I like to think he didn't create an old-looking world 6,000 years ago but rather created an old-looking world in 1986. How would we know the difference?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

However, the Torah as interpreted by the Talmud is supposed to provide the answer to every situation.

That's a rather important qualifier. Talmud is a whole other story, a giant safety net intended to ensure that one comes no where close to crossing the line of the laws of torah. I have major issue with the way that Talmud has been elevated to a point where too many people have lost sight of what it actually is and venerate it more than Torah itself.

But I digress. My point was that organized religion is a tool and nothing more. Other people's use or miss-use of the tool are something I have no control over and are not my concern. All I'm concerned with is how I can make use of a tool that I've felt has helped me in my life.

As for circumcision, we've gone through that discussion before. I'll leave it at the fact that a mohel-performed bris bares little resemblence to radical circumcision performed in many hospitals which involved constriction and tearing.

[flippyshark]

This is a fun thread, loaded with interesting and wise responses, but I feel it is fair to ask;

Tracilicious, since you opened the topic, what's your answer?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

This is a fun thread, loaded with interesting and wise responses, but I feel it is fair to ask;

Tracilicious, since you opened the topic, what's your answer?

This is an easier question to ask than it is to answer, it seems. Therefore, my answer is:

Hmmmmm.....

Ok, so I do have a real answer, but my thoughts on the subject are a swirl and a mesh so trust me when I say that you'll be better off scrolling past then reading my long and rambly post.

I grew up in a very strict Christian religion. I don't want to name it here, because I feel that it's beside the point, and I don't want to muck up the discussion with specifics of this religion.

When I say I grew up as that religion, I don't mean just went to church on Sundays. I went to church multiple times a week. By the time I was three I could expound on all of the religious views and quote scriptures to back them up. At six my goal in life was to be a missionary and I began public speaking in the church. At eight I was baptized. This religion has certain qualifications for baptism, and eight is very young to make that kind of a decision. You are basically handing your life over to God, and renigging on that agreement has consequences according to the bible as they teach it.

As a teen I still practiced, often as the only member of my family, as my mom stopped practicing for a while and various other family members moved away. Much less zealously though. Then at 19 Michael and I got married and moved to an area where we would be going to a new church and just never really went back. We tried a few times, but it never stuck. I did go through some serious withdrawl/depression because what was a huge part of my life wasn't there anymore, but that apparently wasn't enough motivation to go back.

So now it's been almost six years. For a really long time we intended to eventually rejoin, but now I'm not so keen to do so. Yet I'm tired of living in limbo, so to speak, and feel obligated to make some sort of concrete decision. Either I believe all the stuff that I didn't question for most of my life, or I don't. And if I don't, then there are certain restrictions that I'll remove from our lives.

But here is where it gets complicated for me. Two of my brothers have left the religion completely, causing a great deal of grief for the rest of the family when they did so. One sister is like me, but two more sisters and my mom and dad (and his wife) would be fairly crushed if I left completely. The sister that I'm closest to out of all those might even stop talking to me. Any sort of pressure or love withdrawl those family members might impose on me really wouldn't be because they are being sucky, but rather because they would see it as something that might save my life. In addition, our closest friends (who live in another state, so they have no idea that we don't go anymore) would probably cut us off. I doubt that anyone reading this will understand the mentallity behind that, but I would. They would do it in the hopes that we would come to our senses.

But it's sort of an all or nothing thing for me I guess. Like I grew with the example of the ungrateful Israelites who got sick of the manna. But really, why couldn't God have foreseen that and just given them different flavors of manna? And if God is supreme and all knowing, then he must have intended to create evil, as the bible as I was taught says that nothing is here that god didn't design. And giving a choice of God's way or death isn't really a choice at all.

So having such doubts I would feel uncomfortable practicing that religion in any form. Plus I don't really like most of the people that I've met from various churchs. It's hard enough to find other parents that I relate to, I sure as hell am not going to purposefully surround myself with people smacking 2 yr olds for not sitting still for two hours. (Which isn't common, but does happen.) But if I'm definitely not going to be practicing in the foreseeable future, then there are things that I will do that I wouldn't normally do otherwise. And restrictions that would be pointless for my kids to grow up with.

But if I don't believe in what I've always believed in (which maybe I do believe it, I don't know) then what do I believe? Is God the God I grew up with? The God that has answered my prayers occassionally? Did I answer my own prayers like quantum physics says I did? Is god infinity and absence like EH said above? Is the universe constantly expanding and contracting? If I don't believe in the afterlife that I was taught to believe in, then I certainly don't believe in any other afterlife. Then what is the point of any of our time here? Why do we bother saving endangered species or reducing carbon emmissions? Who cares if the species dies out?

Where will I find the sense of community that I grew up with? No ballgames in the park on Sunday after church? I really couldn't go to another church. Church people weird me out for the most part. I've had enough zealoutry for three lives. But nonetheless, something seems absent. Such despondency annoys me.

But yes, I suppose I do feel the presence of God. I believe in that presence even if I'm not sure what its name is right now.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Nope. €uroMeinke pretty much covered my own answer.

I believe in chaos, order, Infnity and absence. There is being and there is nothingness.

Dust to dust, but energy is never truly lost. So, in one way or another, our existence is both finite and forever.

Oddly enough, I love writing plays and stories about God, new souls versus old souls, reincarnation, etc., 'cause it all makes for a lovely and fun metaphor.

I've also known some very highly intelligent people who believe in God, so I leave a little room for doubt. I'm so often wrong about other things...why not this, too?

[Prudence]

Yes - because according to my perception of the world I've seen his/her/its work and influence.

The harder question for me is: what next?

I have, at various times in my life, considered converting to just about every organized religion out there. It's difficult to evaluate, because I find myself looking for the one that's the most convenient for what I'm already doing, which doesn't seem proper.

I still from time to time toy with the idea of converting to Judaism, for many of the reasons GD articulated. However, that particular religion is so enmeshed with a cultural and ethnic background I can never share that I feel it would actually be rude to try to follow that path.

I have also considered adding more "pagan"-style practices -- not because I want to go about casting spells and whatnot, but because I don't think contemporary mainstream religion pays enough attention to the wonder that is nature. If (for example) Christians believe that God created the natural world, why don't congregations spend more time in amazement of nature?

Lately I've even been contemplating a more..hmmm....fantastical view of Christianity, complete with vigorous, unseen battles between the forces of good and evil. (Is it heretical if I picture these unseen forces using unseen light sabers?) I've probably been reading too much about manicheans again.

I see myself currently as on a quest for knowledge. And since I seek knowledge of something ultimately unknowable, it's a journey without a destination. To some, this is dangerous thinking - and a further example of immoral rootlessness. I don't think exploring other ideas is dangerous or puts my soul on the fast track to demons and pitchforks. I think the most dangerous thing I face is a tendency to want to shape my beliefs to please others. It's difficult to walk the line between not concocting a convenient faith on the one hand and not blindly following charismatic practitioners on the other.

[Moonliner]

If I may quote myself...

I've always considered myself an Atheist. The idea that the "Universe" (aka God, Allah, Buda, etc...) gives a rats posterior about me, who I am and what I do always struck me as way way too optimistic. The universe just is.

The same with fate and predetermination. If it's predetermined it had to be planned and frankly who has the time for that sort of thing? Some all powerful being is out there working to infinity so that today, for no apparent reason, I choose to put on my left shoe before my right rather than the other way round? I can't buy into that.

However it cannot be denied that many very reasonable people seem to swear by the higher power concept in one form or another. So it does seem a bit rude (not to mention egotistical) to just blow them ALL off as delusional.

So trying to be a "polite" atheist would seem to lead one down the path to being an agnostic but I've always seen agnostics as wishy-washy and frankly a bit on the sissy side. Not able to decide one way or another. I'd never make a good agnostic so I had to pass on that.

Which left me looking for a reasonable universal doctrine that I can practice. One that I can live with inside myself and at the same time not be perceived by the faithful as attacking their beliefs with my beliefs. It took some time, but I finally decided. I'm an Apatheist. God? No God? Fate or just luck? I don't really care. Let's talk about where we'd like to go to lunch instead.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

I've always considered myself an Atheist. The idea that the "Universe" (aka God, Allah, Buda, etc...) gives a rats posterior about me, who I am and what I do always struck me as way way too optimistic. The universe just is.

Just wanted to quickly clear up a misconception. Buddha isn't considered a God in the Buddhist religion. He was just an ordinary man who searched for and found enlightenment. Buddhists don't believe that he created the world or anything else for that matter, just that he was able to attain a higher existence through meditation and such and then taught his followers how to do the same. Buddhists also believe that anyone can attain the same enlightenment through devoted practice. So, in a sense, we all have the ability to be a Buddha.

There are sects of Buddhism that do believe in various gods, but generally speaking, it isn't mandatory that one believe in these gods.