The Gay Thread

[JWBear]

I was extremely hurt when I read CP's comment this morning. I shouldn't have lashed back, but I did. I apologize.

I am still somewhat puzzled by everyone's reaction to what I said. It was humor, people. Lighten up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I am still somewhat puzzled by everyone's reaction to what I said. It was humor, people. Lighten up.

Maybe it has something to do with the somewhat unpleasant thought that you might in the future (or now?I'm not sure at what age you feel like a boy's actions start to reflect on such matters) you might be watching my pre-pubescent son's behaviors and judging what they mean about his sexual preferences.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It's pretty obvious that you weren't joking. Nice try though. Defensive when backed into a corner then brushing it off...we've seen this before from you. Wouldn't it be easier to admit a mistake and apologize?

Even joking, telling a child she is one thing or another is very limiting. We all do it from time to time and it's something I'm training myself to avoid. Even repeating things as innocent as "he's good at math but not as good at reading" pidgeonholes him as specificially being a math person, setting him up to let his reading skills lag while working feverishly to keep his math skills up to some inner expecation.

If a toddler kicks a ball and you tell him "you're an athlete", or say to a 10 year old "you're not good at sports" when he misses a soccer goal, you're not only influencing his personal view of himself, you're telling him something that is not really being shown, and demonstrating that just one instance of behavior is enough to whitewash his entire persona and reflect either well or badly on him. Talk about pressure.....

....never mind if we're actually talking about a person's sexuality.

A far better take - "You kicked that ball!" "We can work on your goal shooting." "Aren't those flowers pretty?"

[innerSpaceman]

I take issue with conclusion No. 1, or rather feel it needs a clarification. 3.8% of the American adult population identify as LGBT, but since 8.5% are having same-sex sex, I think that lower number is misleading.

[Strangler Lewis]

The concept of the "marriage penalty," which is the source of endless high comedy about old people shacking up, is to the contrary.

[innerSpaceman]

In response to Kobe's "remark," former NBA player John Amaechi had this to say:

Originally Posted by John Amaedchi

The problem we have now is because of the way we don't address homophobia, the ultimate insult to a man is to tell them either they're like a woman or worse, that they're gay.

We have to take it as unacceptable as a white person screaming the N-word at a black person. … I can tell you that I've been called a f——- fairly routinely, and yet people seem to hold off on calling me the N-word. We've got to mirror that progress.

I find this interesting in light of a facebook conversation yesterday between me, Gemini Cricket, Morrigoon and Chernabog about gay insults vs. harmless phrases. Brad has (in the past, at least) deplored the use of "that's go gay" as a version of lame accusation that relies on negative views of gay stereotypes. I, on the other hand, deplore when gay men refer to other gay men as "girls," feeling it riffs too directly on the insult that gay men are equivalent to women (even though there's absolutely nothing wrong (far from it) with being a women. It's just that gay men aren't.


Anyway, it seems to me like an interesting tangent of discussion ... perhaps.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Anyway, it seems to me like an interesting tangent of discussion ... perhaps.

Or perhaps not.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I see both sides. While I do think that removing that use of the F word is a good social goal to have, and the NBA making a public statement that it won't be tolerated is a good thing, I don't think it reflects as badly on Kobe as (to use the obvious parallel) a white person calling a black person the N word.

I think the "he comes from a different era" defense, as lame is it often sounds, applies. He's my age. When I grew up, that word was not impressed with level of stigma as maybe it should have been. And, even more importantly, it was, in my neck of the woods at least, most often not used in a way that really was intended to connote sexuality. And while I as a more enlightened adult recognize that even such second/third hand denigration shouldn't be acceptable ("F word" means "gay" and gays are bad, therefore by calling you the F word I'm calling you bad), I see a gulf between, "You, black man, are an N word" and, "You, person whose sexuality is likely hetero but is actually unknown to me are an asshole so I'm calling you a F word because that's a near-synonym to asshole in my head".

Again, I want to stress, the NBA and people in general are not wrong to cringe at its use and to strongly discourage it and to continue to work to attach N word level stigma to it. But I don't think that Kobe's use of it is indicative of any particularly strong homophobic tendancies. Lord knows I was guilty of its use for most of my life, and it's still part of my reflexive language (I cringe at myself any time I think it, or think "gay" when I see something effeminate).

[innerSpaceman]

Well, the three of us really talked it out on facebook. I'm not sure that many people read the Gay Thread. Of course, lately, I think LoT would do best to just reduce itself to the Vent Thread, the Happy Thread, and the So Thread - and be done with it.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

p'shaw!