All About McCain - Page 109

innerSpaceman · 10-02-2008, 08:38 AM

Why are you obsessed with the source of the criticism? How does the source make or not make criticism valid?

People often ridicule the pot calling the kettle black ... but it's almost always the pot who knows best about the blackness it sees in kettle.

Strangler Lewis · 10-02-2008, 08:40 AM

Scaeagles, your criticism of Gaston seems a little dishonest now that the Republicans have a VP nominee who uses antlers in all of her decorating.

Gemini Cricket · 10-02-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Scaeagles, your criticism of Gaston seems a little dishonest now that the Republicans have a VP nominee who uses antlers in all of her decorating.

That was just brilliant, SL! Visible mojo.

scaeagles · 10-02-2008, 09:18 AM

My point, ISM, is that I don't know why I'm supposed to care about what the Europeans (or whomever) think about us because of the current situation when they are in fact in the same situation.

It is not that I consider criticism of our situation to be invalid,nor have I said so. I'm just wondering why I should care about what others think about us because of it when they are doing the exact same thing. It's like a heroin addict pointing at another heroin addict talking about how pathetic they are. Both are pathetic and the one talking about how pathetic the other is might need to realize they are no better.

Yes, we're both heroin addicted and pathetic. But I don't care if the other pathetic losers think we're pathetic losers, too.

Ghoulish Delight · 10-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

My point, ISM, is that I don't know why I'm supposed to care about what the Europeans (or whomever) think about us because of the current situation when they are in fact in the same situation. ...
Yes, we're both heroin addicted and pathetic. But I don't care if the other pathetic losers think we're pathetic losers, too.

Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence. It's not about whether we're having the same problems as everyone else, it's about whether we are still perceived as the economic leaders of the world. Economics is 100% perception. Money has no value unless people think it has value.

That's not to say that a few individual opinions are absolute proof of anything, but if we want to get back on a path to recovery, you have to look at more than market indexes and exchange rates. The dollar may have gained a bit of strength in recent weeks, but if there's a growing perception of weakness it will not last.

Morrigoon · 10-02-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence. It's not about whether we're having the same problems as everyone else, it's about whether we are still perceived as the economic leaders of the world. Economics is 100% perception. Money has no value unless people think it has value.

That's not to say that a few individual opinions are absolute proof of anything, but if we want to get back on a path to recovery, you have to look at more than market indexes and exchange rates. The dollar may have gained a bit of strength in recent weeks, but if there's a growing perception of weakness it will not last.

Excellent post.

There are many experts who have been bearish on the US economy in the long term. Knowing that, and seeing it come true, bothers me, because they also didn't see much hope for us regaining our stature.

Tenigma · 10-02-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Except it didn't use to be that way. It used to be that when other markets were faltering, they'd be looking to us for help. I think it IS significant to note that the rest of the world appears to have diminished respect for our economic stature, especially in a world where we are increasingly reliant on world consumer confidence.

While it's not directly related to the global economy, one thing I want to mention is the little personal anecdote Obama gave during the first debate, about how his father did everything he could to come to the U.S., and how the U.S. is no longer looked upon as the beacon for people to come to.

I caught a snippet of the Laura Ingraham show, where a female caller said Obama was absolutely wrong, because we still have a ton of illegal immigrants trying to cross into the border.

I agree we still have a lot of people wanting to come here, but I think a lot of what's driving that is economic. What Obama was talking about was people wanting to come here for ideological purposes; people seeing America as the home of the free, where you can make your dream come true. When other countries snort and disrespect our country, we lose footing as the "beacon of freedom" that people want to flock to.

Some might think that's a good thing--less immigrants. But I'd like to continue to think of us as the good guys. Not the scary fundamentalist Christianist country so afraid of terrorists that our government thinks it's OK to ship suspects to foreign countries to be tortured.

Oh one thing... I give McCain credit for being expressly against torture, but I bet Obama will be much faster about closing GITMO, stopping extraordinary rendition, stopping "advanced interrogation techniques" and other horrendous things we do to people, many of whom aren't even formally charged. How does that stuff make us the good guys?

Morrigoon · 10-02-2008, 10:07 AM

scae: because no matter how much we think their opinion doesn't matter, it does, and it does affect us, financially, militarily, and otherwise.

Case in point - when Poland is perceived as weak, it gets invaded.

innerSpaceman · 10-02-2008, 10:08 AM

Really, scaeagles. We're not saying you should necessarily care because of the FACT that our reputation has sufferered, but rather because there are tangible effects of that diminished reputation.

Set aside that you don't care about what the pot thinks of the kettle. Does it bother you if the pot won't cooperate with the kettle in the kitchen because the kettle's turned black (and no one recognizes black quicker than the pot)??

scaeagles · 10-02-2008, 10:24 AM

I don't believe for a second that the pot isn't going to work with the kettle. This is all opportunistic bluster, IMO.

Europe in particular has been openly trying to challange the US as the economic leader of the world.... I believe the some french official said they wanted to be a counter balance to the US. Thus the Euro, the European Union, etc, etc, etc. This is a chance for them to play international politics and criticize that which they wish to replace. You will counter that this isn't about the leadership of Europe, but about the people, but the leadership sets the policies.

This is why I lend no credence to it. They want to be in the position we have occupied, so of course they will criticize us.

10-02-2008, 08:38 AM	#1
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Why are you obsessed with the source of the criticism? How does the source make or not make criticism valid? People often ridicule the pot calling the kettle black ... but it's almost always the pot who knows best about the blackness it sees in kettle.
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10-02-2008, 08:40 AM	#2
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	Scaeagles, your criticism of Gaston seems a little dishonest now that the Republicans have a VP nominee who uses antlers in all of her decorating. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
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10-02-2008, 09:18 AM	#4
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	My point, ISM, is that I don't know why I'm supposed to care about what the Europeans (or whomever) think about us because of the current situation when they are in fact in the same situation. It is not that I consider criticism of our situation to be invalid,nor have I said so. I'm just wondering why I should care about what others think about us because of it when they are doing the exact same thing. It's like a heroin addict pointing at another heroin addict talking about how pathetic they are. Both are pathetic and the one talking about how pathetic the other is might need to realize they are no better. Yes, we're both heroin addicted and pathetic. But I don't care if the other pathetic losers think we're pathetic losers, too.
	Submit to Quotes

10-02-2008, 10:07 AM	#8
Morrigoon I throw stones at houses Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Location: Location Posts: 9,534	scae: because no matter how much we think their opinion doesn't matter, it does, and it does affect us, financially, militarily, and otherwise. Case in point - when Poland is perceived as weak, it gets invaded. __________________ http://bash.org/?top "It is useless for sheep to pass a resolution in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion." -- William Randolph Inge
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10-02-2008, 10:08 AM	#9
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Really, scaeagles. We're not saying you should necessarily care because of the FACT that our reputation has sufferered, but rather because there are tangible effects of that diminished reputation. Set aside that you don't care about what the pot thinks of the kettle. Does it bother you if the pot won't cooperate with the kettle in the kitchen because the kettle's turned black (and no one recognizes black quicker than the pot)??
	Submit to Quotes

10-02-2008, 10:24 AM	#10
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I don't believe for a second that the pot isn't going to work with the kettle. This is all opportunistic bluster, IMO. Europe in particular has been openly trying to challange the US as the economic leader of the world.... I believe the some french official said they wanted to be a counter balance to the US. Thus the Euro, the European Union, etc, etc, etc. This is a chance for them to play international politics and criticize that which they wish to replace. You will counter that this isn't about the leadership of Europe, but about the people, but the leadership sets the policies. This is why I lend no credence to it. They want to be in the position we have occupied, so of course they will criticize us.
	Submit to Quotes