Religious Freedom

[Not Afraid]

Focus on the difference between how one IS gay and how one BECOMES an alcoholic. That is the primary difference to me.

The planet analogy just isn't working for me.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

The planet analogy is not working for me, either.

But I see where you're going with the "something is only a disease because society has decided that its effects are bad" argument. Still, you are born biologically gay. You are not born biologically alcoholic. Compulsive, perhaps, but not alcoholic.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Focus on the difference between how one IS gay and how one BECOMES an alcoholic. That is the primary difference to me.

Just because something doesn't have the same structure as alcoholism doesn't mean it's not a disease. Albinism is classified as a disease and it exhibits itself nothing like alcoholism, obviously. You are born an albino.

Additionally, alcoholism itself can be exhibited in many different ways, as you're well aware. Some people can become addicted within having the first few drinks of their lives. Some people who might become addicted were they to drink in excess likely avoid it if they never have more than an occasional casual drink their whole life. And some people will never become alcoholics no matter how much they drink.

And while there's no hard evidence as of yet, I'd be shocked if the same weren't true of homosexuality. Some people are going to be gay no matter their upbringing. Some people are going to be straight no matter their environment. Some people will go one way or the other depending on what they're exposed to as they grow up.

But the fact remains, if the medical community were convinced that homosexuality were detrimental, it would be classified as a disease.

And I'm standing by the planet analogy. Both are purely subjective calls to drawn an arbitrary line in the sand. Neither term has any scientific definition that can be applied to accurately and automatically categorize anything.

[Not Afraid]

Exactly what I was trying to say, H. You may be alcoholic before you have your first drink, or it may develop over time as you continue drinking and your body begins to chemically process alcohol differently. But, you need alcohol to become an alcoholic. You can BE gay and never actually have acted on it. You don't need to ever have had gay sex to be gay. Big difference.


I don't think albinoism is classified as a disease.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Exactly what I was trying to say, H. You may be alcoholic before you have your first drink, or it may develope over time as you continue drinking and your body begins to chemically process alcohol differently. But, you need alcohol to become an alcoholic. You can BE gay and never actually have acted on it.

Umm, you completely contradicted yourself. "You may be alcoholic before your fist drink" "You need alcohol to become an alcoholic." Which is it?

But again, it's not even about the specifics as things called "diseases" vary GREATLY between being born already exhibiting it, being born with 100% chance of exhibiting it later in life, to being born with a predisposition to exhibit it if the right (or wrong) event triggers it, etc., etc. So whether homosexuality is exactly like alcoholism is irrelevant.

[Bornieo: Fully Loaded]

I think what NA means, and I am no way speaking for her, IMHO, is the addiction is there. Addiction to the alcohol, or it could be drugs or smoking, whatever the vice is. People are born with that somewhere in them, just like maybe being Gay or being attracted to redheads or hating Democrats or roadrage. It's part of personality that pops into us whenever one belives we become a "person."

IMHO. My .02.

[Not Afraid]

Let me try this again.

With alcoholism, you may be physically have the inability to process alcohol like a normal person, but without alcohol, you would never know you are an alcoholic. It is just a malfunction of your body that never gets triggered because you never ingest the substance it takes to trigger it. Once you ingest alcohol, the "whatever physical thing happens in your body" begins to take place. In some people, the process happens slowly, in others they become full-blown alcoholics almost immediately. But, often it is a progressive disease.

Now, take out alcoholism and replace the appropriate words with gay definitions. There are huge differences. You don't become gay over time. You may beceome more accepting of being gay over time, but your condition doesn't get "worse".

[Strangler Lewis]

I don't know the timeline, but homosexuality used to be classified as a mental disorder. Now it's not. My DSM IV does not list homosexuality as a disorder. It does, however, list transvestic fetishism and gender identity disorder. However, as with most diseases, these should only be diagnosed as disorders if they cause distress or impair function.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

And while there's no hard evidence as of yet, I'd be shocked if the same weren't true of homosexuality. Some people are going to be gay no matter their upbringing. Some people are going to be straight no matter their environment. Some people will go one way or the other depending on what they're exposed to as they grow up.

But the fact remains, if the medical community were convinced that homosexuality were detrimental, it would be classified as a disease.

And I'm standing by the planet analogy. Both are purely subjective calls to drawn an arbitrary line in the sand. Neither term has any scientific definition that can be applied to accurately and automatically categorize anything.

I'm going to mince words about alcoholism. Alcoholism isn't alcoholism until alcohol is involved. Predisposition to compulsive behavior is the genetic trait in question.

And here's where our arguments aren't running on the same track. I believe that homosexuality isn't a predisposition, but a biological fact-- therefore not at all comparable to any behavior that IS a predisposition.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Now, take out alcoholism and replace the appropriate words with gay definitions. There are huge differences. You don't become gay over time. You may beceome more accepting of being gay over time, but your condition doesn't get "worse".

I don't know that there's enough evidence to make that claim.