The Gay Thread - Page 13

Ghoulish Delight · 10-29-2009, 03:52 PM

I should add that how much the victim or family suffered is somewhat irrelevant to the debate. Criminal justice isn't, and shouldn't be about retribution, or an attempt to assuage the hurt the victim/victim's family feels. This has been shown time and again with regards, specifically, to the death penalty. Very very very few people have, in the long run, said that once a killer is put to death, that they somehow feel vindicated or relieved.

Criminal justice should is about A) punishing the criminal and B) maintaining societal order. An argument can be made (I should mention here that I'm of two minds regarding hate crime legislation) that people who commit violent crimes based on bigoted motives are people who are more likely to commit another violent crime in the future. The thought being that, since their animosity is directed at an entire GROUP of people, rather than some individual grudge, they pose a larger threat and should therefore be kept out of society longer. It's not about making the victim feel better, it's about discouraging and preventing future incidents as much as possible.

I don't know that there's any evidence that such legislation is effective in that aim, but there is some logic there that I can follow, so I'm not ready to entirely dismiss it as a useful tool for long term dampening of the ugly bit of American culture that is literal gay bashing.

Cadaverous Pallor · 10-30-2009, 12:00 PM

GD said it best (of course

). The idea that "person A shot person B" is always the exact same crime and deserves the exact same punishment is absurd.

What if:

A = 4 year old with daddy's gun?

A = A senile 101 year old man?

A = A person who's killed before?

OR

B = A visibly pregnant woman?

B = A person who is pointing a gun at A?

Give me a break.

Another point that I would make is that statements in black and white look lovely on paper, but that human brains do not work that way. "Motive doesn't matter" just doesn't make sense in the world of human experience, as the already-in-place legal system bears out.

I'm reminded of the "is it ok to steal medicine to make your loved one well" test they give children and teens to show that there is a gray area in good/bad and punishment that people grow to understand as they mature.

Nephythys · 10-30-2009, 01:14 PM

Motive does matter-but saying it is "worse" for someone to kill because their victim was gay, than because their victim was a woman- is wrong. It creates a different class of victims-and the punishment should not be different due to that "class".

Ghoulish Delight · 10-30-2009, 01:20 PM

Again, we already do that. It's "worse" to assault a child vs. assaulting an adult. It's "worse" to abuse an elderly infirmed person than a middle-aged person. There are countless laws that have been in effect, with little to no objection, for decades that delineate all kinds of different classes of people against whom a crime carries a stiffer punishment.

Argue all you want that this particular way to create a separate class won't accomplish anything benefiting society, but saying that creating different classes of victims is in and of itself wrong simply does not hold water considering our current justice system. So unless we're going to open up debate on all of those other laws meant to protect particular classes of people, it's not an argument that makes much sense.

Morrigoon · 10-30-2009, 01:26 PM

I thought this was the happy gay thread

Ghoulish Delight · 10-30-2009, 02:27 PM

Just by way of completing a thought - employment laws, specifically laws concerning discriminatory hiring and firing practices, already create legal distinctions involving the very protected classes of people covered by hate crime legislation.

Gemini Cricket · 10-30-2009, 02:44 PM

I think that Mario Cantone is the gayest gay that has ever gayed TV. He was on The View this morning dressed as Peter Pan. No one was shocked.

mousepod · 10-30-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I think that Mario Cantone is the gayest gay that has ever gayed TV. He was on The View this morning dressed as Peter Pan. No one was shocked.

You shoulda seen his kids' show: "Steampipe Alley".

Gemini Cricket · 10-30-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousepod

You shoulda seen his kids' show: "Steampipe Alley".

I'm rolling on the floor here. I thought you wrote "Steampie Alley". I guess either name could have interesting connotations.

SzczerbiakManiac · 10-30-2009, 02:57 PM

I love Mario Cantone!! He's funny, talented, gorgeous, and openly gay. (as if he could hide that fact)

Did you see his Broadway show Laugh Whore? Screamingly funny! It was on Showtime a few years ago but alas, does not appear to have been released on DVD.

I saw him as Buzz in Love! Valor! Compassion! at the Geffen Playhouse years ago. He had (and presumably still has) a very nice ass. Yes, we got a good look at it.

10-29-2009, 03:52 PM	#1
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	I should add that how much the victim or family suffered is somewhat irrelevant to the debate. Criminal justice isn't, and shouldn't be about retribution, or an attempt to assuage the hurt the victim/victim's family feels. This has been shown time and again with regards, specifically, to the death penalty. Very very very few people have, in the long run, said that once a killer is put to death, that they somehow feel vindicated or relieved. Criminal justice should is about A) punishing the criminal and B) maintaining societal order. An argument can be made (I should mention here that I'm of two minds regarding hate crime legislation) that people who commit violent crimes based on bigoted motives are people who are more likely to commit another violent crime in the future. The thought being that, since their animosity is directed at an entire GROUP of people, rather than some individual grudge, they pose a larger threat and should therefore be kept out of society longer. It's not about making the victim feel better, it's about discouraging and preventing future incidents as much as possible. I don't know that there's any evidence that such legislation is effective in that aim, but there is some logic there that I can follow, so I'm not ready to entirely dismiss it as a useful tool for long term dampening of the ugly bit of American culture that is literal gay bashing. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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10-30-2009, 12:00 PM	#2
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	GD said it best (of course ). The idea that "person A shot person B" is always the exact same crime and deserves the exact same punishment is absurd. What if: A = 4 year old with daddy's gun? A = A senile 101 year old man? A = A person who's killed before? OR B = A visibly pregnant woman? B = A person who is pointing a gun at A? Give me a break. Another point that I would make is that statements in black and white look lovely on paper, but that human brains do not work that way. "Motive doesn't matter" just doesn't make sense in the world of human experience, as the already-in-place legal system bears out. I'm reminded of the "is it ok to steal medicine to make your loved one well" test they give children and teens to show that there is a gray area in good/bad and punishment that people grow to understand as they mature. __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
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10-30-2009, 01:14 PM	#3
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	Motive does matter-but saying it is "worse" for someone to kill because their victim was gay, than because their victim was a woman- is wrong. It creates a different class of victims-and the punishment should not be different due to that "class".
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10-30-2009, 01:20 PM	#4
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Again, we already do that. It's "worse" to assault a child vs. assaulting an adult. It's "worse" to abuse an elderly infirmed person than a middle-aged person. There are countless laws that have been in effect, with little to no objection, for decades that delineate all kinds of different classes of people against whom a crime carries a stiffer punishment. Argue all you want that this particular way to create a separate class won't accomplish anything benefiting society, but saying that creating different classes of victims is in and of itself wrong simply does not hold water considering our current justice system. So unless we're going to open up debate on all of those other laws meant to protect particular classes of people, it's not an argument that makes much sense. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
	Submit to Quotes

10-30-2009, 01:26 PM	#5
Morrigoon I throw stones at houses Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Location: Location Posts: 9,534	I thought this was the happy gay thread __________________ http://bash.org/?top "It is useless for sheep to pass a resolution in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion." -- William Randolph Inge
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10-30-2009, 02:27 PM	#6
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Just by way of completing a thought - employment laws, specifically laws concerning discriminatory hiring and firing practices, already create legal distinctions involving the very protected classes of people covered by hate crime legislation. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
	Submit to Quotes

10-30-2009, 02:44 PM	#7
Gemini Cricket ... Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,244	I think that Mario Cantone is the gayest gay that has ever gayed TV. He was on The View this morning dressed as Peter Pan. No one was shocked.
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10-30-2009, 02:57 PM	#10
SzczerbiakManiac "ZER-bee-ak" Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,409	I love Mario Cantone!! He's funny, talented, gorgeous, and openly gay. (as if he could hide that fact) Did you see his Broadway show Laugh Whore? Screamingly funny! It was on Showtime a few years ago but alas, does not appear to have been released on DVD. I saw him as Buzz in Love! Valor! Compassion! at the Geffen Playhouse years ago. He had (and presumably still has) a very nice ass. Yes, we got a good look at it. __________________
	Submit to Quotes