The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Nephythys]

I don't think they are treated unfairly- but they do pay the majority of taxes. Complaining about tax cuts for the rich-the people who pay more taxes- is just a class warfare tactic.

Taxes should be lowered all over- but it is disingenuous to gripe about giving tax cuts to people who pay more in taxes. I seriously question the motivation of anyone who makes those complaints- is it really tax related, or just class envy and a desire to stick it to people with more money and force them to redistribute their wealth to people who have not earned it.

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

a desire to stick it to people with more money and force them to redistribute their wealth to people who have not earned it.

Like children, teachers and veterans.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Like children, teachers and veterans.

um, no.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Taxes should be lowered all over- but it is disingenuous to gripe about giving tax cuts to people who pay more in taxes. I seriously question the motivation of anyone who makes those complaints- is it really tax related, or just class envy and a desire to stick it to people with more money and force them to redistribute their wealth to people who have not earned it.

Disingenuous? That I want everyone to pay an equal share of taxes? That doesn't mean everyone pays 1/300,000,000 of the taxes. That means if I pay 30% of my income, then you pay 30% of your income. As the numbers show, at the moment, the wealthiest Americans are already paying taxes at a lower percentage rate than the rest of the country, and people are trying to get it even lower. Tax cuts for the highest brackets continue to shift a proportinally greater burdon onto the middle and lower classes.

And, oops, I forgot my source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_distribution)

And the income figures you quote ignore capital gains, rent revenue, gifts, etc. It only accounts for W2 wages.

[Alex]

The problem with the tax system is that we use it as not just a source of revenue but also as a means of social engineering.

We create a billion loopholes to encourage certain behaviors and then get upset when a rich person uses all of them to end up paying little in taxes.

Lose the loopholes and actually make people pay percentages and make a two tiered flat tax system. I think even the poorest should pay some small percentage of their income into taxes rather than a blanket exemption. A society in which 30% of the people pay no taxes is a society that only has an interest in seeing taxes rise.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

The problem with the tax system is that we use it as not just a source of revenue but also as a means of social engineering.

We create a billion loopholes to encourage certain behaviors and then get upset when a rich person uses all of them to end up paying little in taxes.

Lose the loopholes and actually make people pay percentages and make a two tiered flat tax system. I think even the poorest should pay some small percentage of their income into taxes rather than a blanket exemption. A society in which 30% of the people pay no taxes is a society that only has an interest in seeing taxes rise.

Great post.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Lose the loopholes and actually make people pay percentages and make a two tiered flat tax system.

w00t.

um, no.

You seem to be conflating 2 (or 3) different issues. I may or may not agree that across-the-board tax cuts are needed and I may or may not agree with what tax money should be spent on, but that's an entirely different discussion than whether tax cuts that only lower taxes for a segment of the country that's already paying less than their proportionate share make sense.

I am insulted that the gov't thinks they can spend my money better than I can.

Aggregated money is far more efficient than an equal amount of money distributed. A single entity offering 2 Million dollars for road work will get more roads built than 50,000 individuals offering $40 each for road work. I'm not going to argue that everything our government is spending its money on is being done efficiently, but having a combined resource pool benefits me more than having that $40 in my pocket. The difficult bit is finding the balance point.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Aggregated money is far more efficient than an equal amount of money distributed. A single entity offering 2 Million dollars for road work will get more roads built than 50,000 individuals offering $40 each for road work. I'm not going to argue that everything our government is spending its money on is being done efficiently, but having a combined resource pool benefits me more than having that $40 in my pocket. The difficult bit is finding the balance point.

Yes-

I hate the way the gov't spends our money.

[Nephythys]

I never said you were disingenuous GD- I said I suspect it of people who gripe about the "rich".

I am all for flat tax- at least in theory.

I am especially all for keeping more of our income and giving less to the infernal revenue service and the gov't- I am insulted that the gov't thinks they can spend my money better than I can.

[Nephythys]

Lay's Conviction Erased from Records



Oh my-

A federal judge in Houston this afternoon wiped away the fraud and conspiracy conviction of Kenneth L. Lay, the Enron Corp. founder who died of heart disease in July, bowing to decades of legal precedent but frustrating government attempts to seize nearly $44 million from his estate.

The ruling worried employees and investors who lost billions of dollars when the Houston energy trading company filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2001. It also came weeks after Congress recessed for the November elections without acting on a last-ditch Justice Department proposal that would have changed the law to allow prosecutors to seize millions in investments and other assets that Lay controlled.

...snip...

Regulators at the Securities and Exchange Commission can still pursue their civil case against Lay's estate, but their task will be more difficult because they can no longer introduce the fact of his conviction and instead must prove all over again that he broke the law. The SEC case has been stayed pending resolution of the criminal issues, an agency spokesman said.