Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza

[Alex]

I imagine the various groups would have different answers. Some would be accepting of honest religious conversion (as the religion has been since the beginning) while others would still object to a separate national identity based on the ethnic identity of Jews. The resistance by Palestinians has never been fought on explicitly religious grounds but rather on geographic grounds; conversion would not remove that problem. Then other groups would still object since the conversion likely wouldnt be to the proper brand of Islam.

I think that's a large part of why the problem is so intractable. There are vastly different motivations for the violence and they're all knotted up such that there aren't any simple solutions and simply cutting the Gordian Knot doesn't make anybody happy either.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Depends on what you poke it with. I'm not sure who you are saying should have a fence but Israel was trying to build one to general international condemnation when they were attacked by the dog.

And no it doesn't.

You don't think a country should be prepared to fight before picking a fight? We're good, but not three or four fronts good. Don't get me wrong- I think Iran is incredibly dangerous and the Chamberlain approach would be a mistake, but I was originally comparing (very simplistically) the differences between Bush and Kerry. They are polar opposites, and sometimes the answer lies somewhere in the middle: try every diplomatic tactic, enlist as much aid as possible and try real hard to remember that we live in a global community and if we keep pissing off everyone else we will be standing alone.

[scaeagles]

I suppose the problem is that diplomacy takes time. Diplomacy is often used as a delaying tactic, as is the case with Iran and their nuclear ambitions. So trying every diplomatic tactic is not practical and can be counterproductive to your goal.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

You don't think a country should be prepared to fight before picking a fight? We're good, but not three or four fronts good. Don't get me wrong- I think Iran is incredibly dangerous and the Chamberlain approach would be a mistake, but I was originally comparing (very simplistically) the differences between Bush and Kerry. They are polar opposites, and sometimes the answer lies somewhere in the middle: try every diplomatic tactic, enlist as much aid as possible and try real hard to remember that we live in a global community and if we keep pissing off everyone else we will be standing alone.

If that is what you mean by wall, then I suppose. But what you suggest is what Bush has mostly been doing with Iran.

And we are more than capable of taking on Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, Brazil and The Netherlands simultaneously if we really wanted to. The only reason it looks difficult is that we're doing our best to fight without killing.

Other than attacking their historic enemy and rhetorically telling the truth about them, what have we done to provoke violence from Iran? What position in relation to Iran have we taken that has been condemned by the international commnity? What action has Bush taken that obviously provoked Iran into giving missiles to Hezbollah for use against Israel?

try every diplomatic tactic, enlist as much aid as possible and try real hard to remember that we live in a global community and if we keep pissing off everyone else we will be standing alone.

That isn't necessarily something in the middle. There is always another diplomatic tactic that could be tried.

For the record, I believe that Iran should be able to develop nuclear weapons if it wants that the the "diplomacy of non-proliferation" is stupid and a time waster in that it is doomed to complete failure. So I'm not in support of what the diplomatic community is trying to do with Iran. I'm just reacting to your violent dog analogy. You don't put off dealing with a violent dog, you muzzle it as soon as possible.

[wendybeth]

You muzzle the dog, not poke at it endlessly then marvel at the fact it took a hunk out of your leg....

You said wall, not me. By 'fence' I meant some sort of defense, as in adequate arms, cannon fodder, etc, which we do not have at the moment.

[Alex]

Oh, we have plenty enough to deal with Iran. We just probably don't have the political will to use it. But again, other than trying to keep Iran from developing nukes, what is the policy of poking by Bush that has created in Iran the desire to support attacks on Israel?

Sorry, wall/fence. Same thing.

[Alex]

I guess what I'm getting at is, considering that Iran has been supporting attacks on Israel since the Shah was overthrown, how do you distinguish the current behavior as something caused by Bush?

[wendybeth]

Again, I was merely pointing out the general (as perceived by myself) differences in approach to this problem between Kerry and Bush, not intending to get into a discussion about whether a symbol of preparedness is a fence or a wall. However, if it were a wall, there would be limited poking involved, right? Hard to poke through a solid object.

[wendybeth]

Oh, and a simple keyword search using 'Bush and Iran' yielded over 7,400,000 results, from which I am fairly certain more than a few instances of 'pokage' would be easy to glean. There are plenty of legitimate instances for sure, but there are also many that are based on speculation and presumption that have yet to be proven. (Not unlike Iraq, pre-invasion). His rhetoric makes people nervous, because it sounds like the same stuff he accused Iraq of, and look where we are now. Meanwhile, N. Korea really does have nuclear capability and has clearly expressed the intent to use it if it deems necessary, which is frightening given the nutjob that is running that country. It seems to me that Bush is far less concerned with that situation, which I would consider puzzling if not for the cynic in me.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

His secret service detail might have frowned on that.

So that was the only thing stopping you, huh?

Sorry, I'll stop derailing now.