Ebonics being pushed - idiot educators

[Moonliner]

I don't think that anyone could argue with the fact that job opportunities for individuals who speak standard English are greater than the ones for speakers of Ebonics. I'm sure in some cases you could make millions speaking nothing but Ebonics, song writers come to mind, but that is the exception and not the rule.

So teaching Ebonics would not be in the best interest of our kids. However if a large percentage of your student population uses Ebonics then I can see where the idea of treating them the same way you would non-English speaking students (Russian, French, whatever...) might have some appeal. As long as the overall goal is for them to learn standard English.

However teaching Ebonics as for foreign language is just wrong. I don't need to speak Chinese to appreciate China's long history and I don't believe that Ebonics has played such a large role in Black History/Culture that you cannot appreciate it without learning how to speak Ebonics.

[Ghoulish Delight]

No one has advocated teaching it to someone as a foreign language. It's about teaching English to kids who speak it as if English were a foreign language to THEM.

Look at it like this. Which of the following do you think is more likely to end with a kid wanting to learn "proper" English?

1) Hey, stop talking like that, it's wrong, only stupid, uneducated people talk like that. I don't care if your parents, their parents, their friends, your friends, and everybody you talk to every day talks like that, it's wrong, we need to fix you.

2) Alright, your family, friends, and everyone you know talk like that, that's fine. But the rest of the country doesn't, so we're going to teach you how to speak their language so you can work with them.

It just makes sense.

[scaeagles]

How about -

Little Johnny, I want you to succeed. Bad habits are going to make it hard for you succeed. The fact is that in the world of college and business, no one speaks like this, and it makes communication very difficult. I think it would be best, then, if we focus on not trying to talk like that or read words written like that at school. If you can completely weed it out of your life at school, then you can do the same later in life in college and in the job market.

[Prudence]

To address Moonliner's last comments -- actually, I believe that you do appreciate literature better if you read it in the native language. Yes, you can appreciate the culture without it. But I know from experience that reading texts in French or Russian was not equivalent to reading them in English translation. Heck, reading Beowulf in Old English was very different from reading it in translation. Language brings with it baggage -- a set of "understoods" that aren't and don't need to be explicitly stated. Could be the rhythms, the types of descriptors used, the sounds the words make -- it all contributes to meaning. A good translation will do its best to incoporate those elements, but inevitably some things will be lost.

This applies to dialects as well. To bring Faulkner back into it -- dialect is infused within Faulkner. I don't know how you'd manage to translate Faulkner into, say, Chinese and not lose critical parts of meaning. I would assume that somewhere out there is literature written in Ebonics to which similar principles would apply.

But --there remains a wrinkle.

Astoundingly, no one has pointed out the glaring tractor-trailer-sized hole in my reasoning. Ebonics can be distinguished from other US dialects in that it reflects an insular culture, one that isn't open to other ethnicities. Now, I'm going on my own experience here, and perhaps my experience isn't reflective of the whole, but it's my experience that Ebonics would be by and for African-Americans. Whereas no one would question my enrollment in a Japanese language/culture/literature course, I can't imagine I'd be welcome in an Ebonics course.

Traditionally, cultural studies have welcomed students from all backgrounds. Heck, where I work they just named a male professor chair of the women's studies program.

I suppose I'm cynical, but I don't think the same applies in this case.

[Ghoulish Delight]

"Bad habits"

That's instantly going to get a bad reaction. You're telling this kid that every single person they know is doing something "bad". You're not going to have a very receptive student.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

How about -

Little Johnny, I want you to succeed. Bad habits are going to make it hard for you succeed. The fact is that in the world of college and business, no one speaks like this, and it makes communication very difficult. I think it would be best, then, if we focus on not trying to talk like that or read words written like that at school. If you can completely weed it out of your life at school, then you can do the same later in life in college and in the job market.

How about, I don't want you speaking that Navajo any more. Educated people don't speak like that. You'll never succeed in this country if you continue to talk like that. If we remove you from your family, we can completely weed it out of your life and ensure your integration into society.

As if kids, young adults, adults are not capable of discerning appropriate speech based on setting? I manage every day to refrain from screaming "FVCK YOU!" at my boss, no matter how much I might want to. That manner of speech might be acceptible at home or with my friends, but is not appropriate in the workplace. You seem to imply that they would somehow be incapable of making such distinctions and that we should do it for them. I'm not into paternalistic education, thanks very much.

[scaeagles]

Geez - Ok then, take out the words "Bad habits are" and replace with "Speaking like this is".

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Geez - Ok then, take out the words "Bad habits are" and replace with "Speaking like this is".

Well, then, you have the second scenario. By simultaneously saying, "You can't speak like this" and "It's not a language", you're implicitly saying that the only culture they know is wrong and improper. Bad news.

There are time-tested, proven techniques for teaching to kids who speak a foreign language. If, instead of denying the existance of the dialect, you accept it and work on teaching them what they need to know with language teaching techniques that work, a lot more students are going to be helped.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Prudence

As if kids, young adults, adults are not capable of discerning appropriate speech based on setting? I manage every day to refrain from screaming "FVCK YOU!" at my boss, no matter how much I might want to. That manner of speech might be acceptible at home or with my friends, but is not appropriate in the workplace. You seem to imply that they would somehow be incapable of making such distinctions and that we should do it for them. I'm not into paternalistic education, thanks very much.

First of all, I have suggested no such thing. What I have suggested is that in education, encouraging ebonics in any way is a disservice to these students. If we suggest in school that it is appropriate by spending educational time on it, when math and normal language scores are so low and programs such as music are being radically cut due to budgetary concerns, then we are in a way endorsing it as acceptable.

"Well, Interviewer man, teach be speak me dat dis be da cool tang in de biz place. Me not gets da jobbaden?"

Paternalistic education? Telling students about proper speech is paternalistic? I guess we certainly disagree on what is paternalistic. I'd like education to focus on helping kids succeed. Any focus on ebonics does no such thing.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Where in the report does it say that they wouldn't be taught standard English. The whole POINT is to teach them standard English.

Currently, they aren't actively taught standard English. It's just assumed they're speaking Englsih incorrectly and that we need to correct them. That's just not effective. Teaching someone to speak a different dialect is a hugely different proposition than teaching someone who uses a few too many double negatives.