More Bad News for Bush

[innerSpaceman]

Anyway, I will not be one to defend Clinton or any politician about campaign finance scandals ... and you'd hardly have needed a crystal ball to predict those ... or any of the constant future ones of, hmmmm, lemee see - - 98.6% of elected officials.


And I'm sorry that we weren't around to hear anyone's predictions about Clinton's second term .... but the point NOW (without denying the past, just HAPPEN to be talking about the present) is that the situation in Iraq and the situation the 2nd Bush Administration finds itself in were predicted accurately by the left.

Do you deny that fact, or are you simply going to change the subject again?

[Alex]

Well, first I would need to know which predictions about the war, made before the war, you are talking about? There were a lot of predictions made that didn't come true, so to a certain degree it may just be that if you throw enough darts that some of them will hit a target.

Personally, I don't think the Iraq war is going all that badly. It isn't going as well as the administration hoped (and I think they have made some huge gaffes) but it also is progressing along. I think it is more a perception that the war is a debacle than a reality, strengthened by the fact that somehow we have reached the conclusion that 2,000 dead soldiers in a war is a lot. It is unfortunate, but spread out over two and a half years it isn't really that many. In fact, I would argue that the small number of deaths makes it look worse than is the reality since it allows the news to focus on individuals rather than the larger picture.

But really, if you predicted something that I agree has come true, then I have no problem giving mad props for it. Unless it was in this string of logic that was common before the war: we can never topple Iraq, they'll keep us out in the dessert, but if we do topple Iraq we'll never be able to leave, but if we do create a government that allows us to leave it will just be a puppet state, but if it isn't just a puppet state it will be an Islamo-fascist state that is worse than what we had before, but if it isn't an Islamo-fascist state we'll come up with some other reason to be disatisfied by then.

As for the indictment of Libby, it is hardly a stretch to predict that in an era where politics is being criminalized that indictments are hardly unlikely. Once again it looks like an administration official will be charged for covering up a crime that didn't happen. It was wrong when it happened to Clinton administration officials and it was wrong when it happens to Bush administration officials.

Richard Clark gave an interesting interview to NPR the other day (and Clark is no fan of the Bush administration or Karl Rove) about why this type of investigation is terrible for America. I'll have to see if I can track down audio for it.

[Alex]

Here's the NPR interview with Richard Clark:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4973952

I think the specific comments are about 10 minutes into it, but the whole first part of the interview is about the Plame case. He makes several very good points, in my opinion. The key being that when it comes to such investigations we only have one tool and therefore everything looks like a hammer. He suggests there needs to be some kind of investigative process that isn't inherently about criminal investigation (like the Truth Commissions in South Africa) that simply produce findings of fact. Those can then be used for criminal persuits if judged appropriate.

[Gemini Cricket]

Richard Clarke's book 'Against All Enemies' is a good read.

[scaeagles]

I also do not think that the Iraq war is going poorly - or at least as badly as some would have us believe. I won't bother to go into why. As far as predictions, like Alex said, if you make enough, some are bound to come true. I remember supposed experts, prior to invasion, telling the public that we'd lose tens of thousands of troops in the initial invasion.

The difference to me as of now isn't that one scandal is greater than another or that one party is worse than the other, but I don't recall Hillary or Bill being indicted. Bill for his perjury and assisting Monica in filing a false affidavit, and Hillary, if I recall, was found to have made false statements during the Rose Law Firm investigation.

I remember predicting prior to Bill Clinton's first term that there was no way we'd be getting a middle class tax cut. That prediction certainly came true. I don't recall making too many others.

[Name]

I seem to remember Bush I predicting that any action in Iraq would be followed by a lengthy stay, and many casualties..... One of the main reasons he didn't go in and oust Saddam himself..... And also, turning out to be a true prediction by the current administrations father.

[scaeagles]

Yes. 2.5 years. What an eternity thus far. 2.5 years from invasion to passage of a constitution. Let's see.....we declared independence in 1776, and our constitution came in 1787. 11 years. I'd say our time table thus far is looking pretty good.

I don't recall any time tables being set for being out. I recall a time table for the interim government to take over, and that was met. I recall a time table for the first election, and that was met. And I recall a time table for passage of a constitution, and admittedly, that was a couple weeks past the original date set.

[Scrooge McSam]

Hehehe I have seen it all.

[Name]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Yes. 2.5 years. What an eternity thus far. 2.5 years from invasion to passage of a constitution. Let's see.....we declared independence in 1776, and our constitution came in 1787. 11 years. I'd say our time table thus far is looking pretty good.

I don't recall any time tables being set for being out. I recall a time table for the interim government to take over, and that was met. I recall a time table for the first election, and that was met. And I recall a time table for passage of a constitution, and admittedly, that was a couple weeks past the original date set.

Umm, we declared independance in 1776, and immediately went under the articles of confederation.... which the US was governed(if you can call it the US being governed, as it was nothing more then a loose agreement between the different States) under for those 11 years, until the delegates came together those 11 years later(for different reasons then to write a constitution and revamp the governmental system, but I am sure you knew that) and wrote, signed, and ratified the constitution.... so the 11 years is a bit of a fallacy argument, it just took us those 11 years to realize that the governmental system that was set up wasn't working as well as it could and that we wanted something different then a confederation as a form of government.....

But even with the Iraqi constitution, it will still be a very very very long time before we are out of Iraq completely....... In my opinion anyway, tis the nature of the beast that we have unleashed....

Still, you mentioned nothing about how Bush I was right about what he predicted would happen..... because the reasons he gave for not removing Saddam have happened.

[Gemini Cricket]

Speaking of bad news. I saw this and thought it was right on the money: