The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus

[scaeagles]

A favorite quote of mine -

"The single most cause of atheism in our world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips but walk out of the church doors and deny Him with their lifestyle. This is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." Brennen Manning

Speaking as a Christian, all too easy to do.

I will point out, though, that the New Testament is full of examples of correction to early Christians who had difficulties very similar to modern Christians. It isn't a problem with the "age", it is a problem with being human (though this does not make it excusable).

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I agree with everything Alex said in this thread. (sorry Alex)

Originally Posted by Brennen Manning

The single most cause of atheism in our world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips but walk out of the church doors and deny Him with their lifestyle.

I think that quote works if you change the word "atheist" to "Ex-Christians".

[Not Afraid]

You see the whole culture. Nazis, deodorant salesmen, wrestlers, beauty contests, a talk show. Can you imagine the level of a mind that watches wrestling? But the worst are the fundamentalist preachers. Third grade con men telling the poor suckers that watch them that they speak with Jesus, and to please send in money. Money, money, money! If Jesus came back and saw what's going on in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.

From Hannah and her Sisters. This quote still make me laugh almost 20 years later.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't see what the Hannah quote has to do with participating in a religion being easy or difficult. It's rather a matter of following its tenets in your actual life or not.

Is it inherently more difficult to behave morally than immorally? I don't think so. Perhaps it is for those who really want to be bad, but I don't see it being any kind of task for those who are truly inclined to be good.

Perhaps I'm just nitpicking with Alex's choice of words. Actually, I think Alex himself was a little stuck on the word "athiest," when the sentiment of the quote more likely was appropos of the term "agnostic." But people often say one when they mean the other, and so I'm not one to quibble between the two. Perhaps I'm taking a quibbling stand with "easy," but I found it odd to assert that living by Jesus' precepts was difficult ... as if our natural state as humans is to be hateful, cruel and greedy.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I found it odd to assert that living by Jesus' precepts was difficult ... as if our natural state as humans is to be hateful, cruel and greedy.

I actually think it is. As a parent, the hardest thing to do with my children - and I have heard this from other parents as well - is to teach then to NOT be a me first selfish person who is interested in their own well being alone.

Hateful and cruel? Not those. But self serving above all else? Certainly. And a self serving attitude becomes one that can be cruel and hateful to acheive ones ends.

[wendybeth]

Whether or not it's difficult to be a good person depends on so many variables, but by and large I think it is hard to consciously follow a moral and ethically positive path. Children are selfish because they are taught to be so, and later we (hopefully) unteach them. (By taught, I mean they are totally taken care of and looked over and waited on, etc). As they mature, they learn to pay it forward. (Usually). The adults have to lead by example, something we all fail at to some degree, but we should try as best we can. Religion can provide direction, but I think it's so important to use the brain that God gave you as well. To me, it seems life would be easier for an atheist. I think most people are innately good, but for those who believe you have to adhere to a certain system of rules and structure or you fall into the sinful category, it's a struggle. Then you have the whole 'leap of faith' thing, which can be very difficult to reconcile in that we humans tend to demand tangible proof before believing in things.

I get irritated by the Jimmy Swaggerts and pervy priests, but they do not affect my belief system in any way. There have always been hypocrites and criminals, and no religion (or non-religion) is immune from the human factor.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I actually think it is. As a parent, the hardest thing to do with my children - and I have heard this from other parents as well - is to teach then to NOT be a me first selfish person who is interested in their own well being alone.

Hateful and cruel? Not those. But self serving above all else? Certainly. And a self serving attitude becomes one that can be cruel and hateful to acheive ones ends.

I disagree. I don't even think that the self serving attitude needs to be taught out of children. I think Wendy is right, they are selfish because when they are small and their wants and needs are the same, their needs are (hopefully) met right away. It's an adjustment phase as they get older and have to learn to function as a member of the family, but they will learn it just by watching those around them put others first. Jesus taught by example, did he not?

I'm not addressing this to you, Scaeagles, but what puts me off the most about Christianity (and I'm a Christian) is the parents. Or I should say a lot of the parents that I've encountered. There seems to be a mindset that kids are bad and if they aren't forced to do the right thing they never will. That outlook is what gives sadistic nuts like Ezzo and the Pearls* followers.

I don't think that God created bad people. It only makes sense in terms of Christianity to assume that people are inherently good and giving if we are made in His image.


*Ezzo and the Pearls both write really sick child rearing books advocating child abuse. Several deaths have occured because of these books.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I don't think that God created bad people. It only makes sense in terms of Christianity to assume that people are inherently good and giving if we are made in His image.

While it is not my goal to expand this too deep theologically, it is Christian teaching that man is born with a sinful nature. Again, theologically speaking, man was created in the image of God, but then chose sin (whole garden of Eden/fall of man thing).

One of my jobs as a parent is to shape the character of my kids. This does not mean to attempt to alter their personalities and what makes them great individuals. Part of this is presenting my children with responsiblity and choices. Some choices have consequences, and they are are aware of the consequences prior to making a choice. I will rarely force my child to do anything (meaning, for example, I don't allow my 12 year old the option of staying home from school on a whim - I'll put her in the car in her pajamas if that's what it takes, in effect forcing her to go to school), but I will shape their understanding that certain choices have consequences associated with them.

Whether the self serving behavior is learned or is instinctual doesn't really matter to me. The fact is that most two year olds have no concept of how their actions impact those around them. Does that behavior make them bad? No. It makes them human. And I am responsible to teach my children to behave otherwise.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

While it is not my goal to expand this too deep theologically, it is Christian teaching that man is born with a sinful nature. Again, theologically speaking, man was created in the image of God, but then chose sin (whole garden of Eden/fall of man thing).

When I say good, I don't mean without sin. By that definition Jesus was the only good man ever. I mean kind, loving, giving, etc. So often people turn out wonderfully in spite of having horrible parents, reinforcing my belief that the goodness in man is hard to squelch.

One of my jobs as a parent is to shape the character of my kids. This does not mean to attempt to alter their personalities and what makes them great individuals. Part of this is presenting my children with responsiblity and choices. Some choices have consequences, and they are are aware of the consequences prior to making a choice. I will rarely force my child to do anything (meaning, for example, I don't allow my 12 year old the option of staying home from school on a whim - I'll put her in the car in her pajamas if that's what it takes, in effect forcing her to go to school), but I will shape their understanding that certain choices have consequences associated with them.

Scaeagles, you've always seemed like a very loving parent. When I talk about some Christian parents bugging me, I'm not necessarily referring to yourself.

I agree that teaching is the most important part of being a parent. I prefer natural consequences to logical, but that doesn't mean that there isn't teaching involved. There are a very few things I would force, and I'm not saying that force is 100% a bad thing, but I'm sure that while you and I might force kids to go to school, we would also find out why our kids so adamantly didn't want to go to school and help them solve the problem.[/quote]

Whether the self serving behavior is learned or is instinctual doesn't really matter to me. The fact is that most two year olds have no concept of how their actions impact those around them. Does that behavior make them bad? No. It makes them human. And I am responsible to teach my children to behave otherwise.

Yes, I agree, teaching must start from a very young age. The attitude I'm referring to that bugs me is one that equates teaching with punishment. Or more pointedly those that feel that the most appropriate way to "teach" a child, however small, to behave is to hit them or otherwise make them suffer. Which, I guess, if your goal is obedience then that's probably effective. If your goal is to have a well grounded moral compass those methods are useless, as the nature of punishment is to teach self-centeredness.

Again, not referring to you, just a lot of Christian parents I've met. It's possible that this isn't a Christian thing, but an American thing. I have a friend in Egypt that is Christian, but he tells me that punishment isn't really used there.

Well, if God didn't create bad people than who did? If you believe in God and he created everyone then isn't it logical that he created good and evil?

I think some people are just inherently bad, but that's just me thinking aloud a little too late at night.

I don't think people are born bad. I think that some choose to do bad things with their lives, but I don't know of anyone on earth that is 100% bad. If people were born bad, wouldn't that absolve them of responsibility? Personally, I've never met a child that wasn't good.

Also, I agree we are responsible for shaping our children and trying to get them to see right from wrong. Teaching them that there are consequences for their actions is one of the best lessons we can give them.

Yes learning how our actions affect ourselves and others is one of the most important things. However, I don't equate teaching about consequences to imposing consequences. Many actions have consequences all their own, and those can definitely be learned from. Most of the circle of parents that I hang out with don't punish, impose, consequences, or use force. Their kids are pretty phenomenal, so I'll probably continue on that path. My kids are little though, so what do I know.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Actually, I think Alex himself was a little stuck on the word "athiest," when the sentiment of the quote more likely was appropos of the term "agnostic." But people often say one when they mean the other, and so I'm not one to quibble between the two.

To me, saying atheist when you mean agnostic (or in this situation the guy probably means something even less godless than agnostic implies) is about the same as saying tomato when you mean potato. They sound similar but they're really not.

So yes, I may be a bit stuck on the word choice.