Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza - Page 2

Not Afraid · 07-13-2006, 01:06 PM

"The Archduke Ferdinand of our time" is a horrific statement. It sent chills thru my spine.

Capt Jack · 07-13-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

The most recent provocation has been the kidnapping of that Israeli soldier.

well, yes and no.

the kidnapping of the soldier is indeed at the root, but the Hammas attempts to create an environment of "we'll get what we want by forcing you to bargain with lives" and Israels refusal to get pulled into negotiations/prisoner exchanges that would invariably lead to more and more of the same tactic being used against them, and to a greater and greater extent. ie: giving in to blackmail, is what has caused things to advance so quickly.

Israel said 'not now, not ever' and have decided to show them exactly what they've bargained for instead. at this point its far beyond a single soldier being kidnapped.

if all the soldiers were surrendered right now, I think Israel would gladly drop the whole thing....but at this point....no one else will.

mi dos centavos

Morrigoon · 07-13-2006, 01:54 PM

Isreal doesn't exactly go out of its way to make friends either. I often feel like our support of Israel is a bit of a "dirty compromise".... we have to support them because otherwise they'd all be dead, but because of our support, I feel they often overstep their bounds, and then we look like jerks for condoning their behavior.

Prudence · 07-13-2006, 02:00 PM

It seems a shrewd move by Hezbollah/Hamas. The US, Israel's strongest ally, is distracted by difficult situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and world opinion of the US is at a very low ebb. The UN security council is busy with weapons programs in Iran and North Korea. The new Israeli PM doesn't seem to have the same international status as Sharon (I had to look up Olmert's name). And Hamas has increased status in Palestinian territory. If there was ever a time to instigate trouble, this is it.

Also, with the building of the wall and the pull-out from Gaza, Israel hasn't been properly fulfilling its assigned role as neighborhood bully. So, gotta do something to provoke the response that will justify renewed conflict.

I don't know if continued escalation is inevitable, but it at least seems like a very real possibility. And I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not particularly fond of people blowing up other people, and if they really must do that I wish they'd go somewhere with fewer historical treasures. However, I also think that no substantial improvements will be made in that region until the more moderate countries are jolted out of the tendency to frame conflicts as isolated, unrelated actions and forced to take a firm, public stance - and back it up with actions. Is this the provocation that will lead to that action? I don't know.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 03:07 PM

Make friends? When they are surrounded- quite literally- by countries that want them annihilated and wiped off the map?

Gosh- imagine not wanting to try to "make friends".

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 07:39 PM

Get lost, then.

I'd hate being uprooted as much as the next guy. But since it seems almost inevitable that for Israel to gain any sort of permanent peace, it would be necessary to kill every Arab within a 500-mile radius and sew their lands with salt .... I think it thus becomes the duty of every Israeli ... to leave. To abandon the concept of Israel, to abandon a land where all your neighbors want you dead, to accept surrender rather than become a destroyer.

Who can want to live in a nation that can only be maintained by constant violence? Just leave. Come to California if you must. Get out.

Why wait until your country is forced to go beyond the daily rations of civilian killings it perpetrates at the moment? There is no end to be imagined other than either abandonment of Israel or destruction of the arab states around it.

If the United States were facing the prospect of killing every man, woman and child in Canada and Mexico for its own national security, who here would remain a U.S. citizen?

Difficult choices, yes. But Israel is dealing with the most difficult of times. And everyone knows they will only get worse, and worse, and worse.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 08:26 PM

Leave? Walk away from the land they believe is their by right? By Divine Hand? Give up their faith?

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 08:28 PM

They can "believe" anything they choose to.

Nephythys · 07-13-2006, 08:31 PM

In which case you should have no problem with them choosing to believe in defending their country.

innerSpaceman · 07-13-2006, 08:54 PM

At all costs? Even the cost of their very souls?

For a nation which lays claim to its land by virtue of God's decree, the matter of the soul might weigh even more heavily than otherwise.

07-13-2006, 01:06 PM	#11
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	"The Archduke Ferdinand of our time" is a horrific statement. It sent chills thru my spine.
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07-13-2006, 01:54 PM	#13
Morrigoon I throw stones at houses Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Location: Location Posts: 9,534	Isreal doesn't exactly go out of its way to make friends either. I often feel like our support of Israel is a bit of a "dirty compromise".... we have to support them because otherwise they'd all be dead, but because of our support, I feel they often overstep their bounds, and then we look like jerks for condoning their behavior. __________________ http://bash.org/?top "It is useless for sheep to pass a resolution in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion." -- William Randolph Inge
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07-13-2006, 02:00 PM	#14
Prudence Beelzeboobs, Esq. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gavel - I haz it Posts: 6,287	It seems a shrewd move by Hezbollah/Hamas. The US, Israel's strongest ally, is distracted by difficult situations in Afghanistan and Iraq, and world opinion of the US is at a very low ebb. The UN security council is busy with weapons programs in Iran and North Korea. The new Israeli PM doesn't seem to have the same international status as Sharon (I had to look up Olmert's name). And Hamas has increased status in Palestinian territory. If there was ever a time to instigate trouble, this is it. Also, with the building of the wall and the pull-out from Gaza, Israel hasn't been properly fulfilling its assigned role as neighborhood bully. So, gotta do something to provoke the response that will justify renewed conflict. I don't know if continued escalation is inevitable, but it at least seems like a very real possibility. And I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not particularly fond of people blowing up other people, and if they really must do that I wish they'd go somewhere with fewer historical treasures. However, I also think that no substantial improvements will be made in that region until the more moderate countries are jolted out of the tendency to frame conflicts as isolated, unrelated actions and forced to take a firm, public stance - and back it up with actions. Is this the provocation that will lead to that action? I don't know. __________________ traguna macoities tracorum satis de
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07-13-2006, 03:07 PM	#15
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	Make friends? When they are surrounded- quite literally- by countries that want them annihilated and wiped off the map? Gosh- imagine not wanting to try to "make friends".
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07-13-2006, 07:39 PM	#16
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Get lost, then. I'd hate being uprooted as much as the next guy. But since it seems almost inevitable that for Israel to gain any sort of permanent peace, it would be necessary to kill every Arab within a 500-mile radius and sew their lands with salt .... I think it thus becomes the duty of every Israeli ... to leave. To abandon the concept of Israel, to abandon a land where all your neighbors want you dead, to accept surrender rather than become a destroyer. Who can want to live in a nation that can only be maintained by constant violence? Just leave. Come to California if you must. Get out. Why wait until your country is forced to go beyond the daily rations of civilian killings it perpetrates at the moment? There is no end to be imagined other than either abandonment of Israel or destruction of the arab states around it. If the United States were facing the prospect of killing every man, woman and child in Canada and Mexico for its own national security, who here would remain a U.S. citizen? Difficult choices, yes. But Israel is dealing with the most difficult of times. And everyone knows they will only get worse, and worse, and worse.
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07-13-2006, 08:26 PM	#17
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	Leave? Walk away from the land they believe is their by right? By Divine Hand? Give up their faith?
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07-13-2006, 08:28 PM	#18
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	They can "believe" anything they choose to.
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07-13-2006, 08:31 PM	#19
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	In which case you should have no problem with them choosing to believe in defending their country.
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07-13-2006, 08:54 PM	#20
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	At all costs? Even the cost of their very souls? For a nation which lays claim to its land by virtue of God's decree, the matter of the soul might weigh even more heavily than otherwise.
	Submit to Quotes