Man kills 3-year-old boy for being a "sissy"!

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

BFD. We all choose what kind of people to become.

We do? I guess my black, Latino, white trashy and generally fatherless clients who started abusing alcohol and serious drugs at age 12 just made bad choices stemming from a weak character.

We do? I guess my San Francisco Russian Hill neighbors who did not regularly bust liquor bottles in the street and shoot each other made better choices and had better character than my San Francisco Western Addition housing project neighbors who did.

We do? Good, then I've got my evenings back.

I've been a crime victim, I didn't care for it, and I believe that people need to be protected. However, we should approach criminal justice with sadness and humility. The conservative spin on that is "There but for the grace of God go I."

[Ponine]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

BFD. We all choose what kind of people to become. Having lived through hell is not an excuse to put others through hell.

I said I would stay out of this thread..... why didnt I listen to myself???

Do you think that "living through hell" does not predispose you to create it?
That what a child lives through, they might not always see as wrong? or that they oculd be predisposed the behavior because its what they lived with?

Now I can see that the child of an alchoholic can "make a choice" to not be an alchoholic, but in the right socio-economic situation, what if they see no other alternatives?
What if they see the exact same life just come to play before their eyes...
and in part, because there was no one there to point out the differences.

The young woman that was just found after ten years 'in captivity' is now 18. She was given access to a radio, she had magazines, but she didnt have exposure to other teenagers from what we hear. No peer pressure.
All the ideas she came to beleive, were from one person, and herself.
She didnt get to make a choice as to whether or not to be a drug addict, she didnt have access.

Much the same as a teenager with constant access to drugs might not understand there is a choice.
I'm rambling... but you have me curious T.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

BFD. We all choose what kind of people to become. Having lived through hell is not an excuse to put others through hell.

I think you're mistaking "explanation" for "excuse". No one's trying to excuse this scumbag for what he's done, but it's important as a society that we recognize the factors that create such scumbags. Very few people with stable upbringings suddenly choose to become child-beaters. The vast majority of the time, people who perform this kind of violence on children had similar childhoods. And the further we move as a society towards understanding that causality, the further we move towards breaking the cycle.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Tracilicious

BFD. We all choose what kind of people to become. Having lived through hell is not an excuse to put others through hell.

Yes, as an adult, you have the ability to make choices, but most of the time these choices are based on what you've learned throughout your life. If beating, molesting, alcoholism, drug use and crime are the norm for you then why wouldn't you continue doing these things as a normal human being would?

There may not be an excuse for people like there, but there sure as hell is a reason.

[€uroMeinke]

In theory though, those who kill their offspring should ultimately end that particular cycle of violence.

[tracilicious]

Argh! You guys all make very valid points. I actually agree with all of you. I generally can see people's motivations and feel compassion for them. But I have zero sympathy for a guy that beats a three year old to death. None whatsoever.

And at what point does personal responsibility come into play? There are those that are abused as kids that come out of it as wonderful parents. They learn from what their parents did to them and they do the opposite. Why do people that perpetuate the cycle get their behavior written off as ingrained?

I understand that it is difficult to change a pattern of behavior. But there are parenting classes, therapy, books they could read, and any number of other things they could choose to do to enable them to become parents that don't beat the sh!t out of their kids. Even the lowest income parents have access to a library. There are free parenting classes.

I don't understand people ever hitting a child. But beating them because they are a sissy? That's just horrendous.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I think you're mistaking "explanation" for "excuse". No one's trying to excuse this scumbag for what he's done, but it's important as a society that we recognize the factors that create such scumbags. Very few people with stable upbringings suddenly choose to become child-beaters. The vast majority of the time, people who perform this kind of violence on children had similar childhoods. And the further we move as a society towards understanding that causality, the further we move towards breaking the cycle.

I especially agree with this post. Just wanted to acknowledge that in an Alex Stroup approved manner.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

We do? I guess my black, Latino, white trashy and generally fatherless clients who started abusing alcohol and serious drugs at age 12 just made bad choices stemming from a weak character.

I understand what you are saying. But at some point they are going to have to decide what kind of life they are going to live. They may not be able to do that at 12, but at some point there has to be some personal responsibility.

Kids that are molested often molest other, smaller kids. If an eight year old that has been sexually abused molests one of my kids, I'll do my best to help him and his parents get the help they need. If that same person turned 30 and molests one of my kids, I'm going to try to chop off his balls. The reasons for the action haven't changed, but the accountability has.

We do? I guess my San Francisco Russian Hill neighbors who did not regularly bust liquor bottles in the street and shoot each other made better choices and had better character than my San Francisco Western Addition housing project neighbors who did.

So what is the difference between the two? I'm not familiar with the areas.

I've been a crime victim, I didn't care for it, and I believe that people need to be protected. However, we should approach criminal justice with sadness and humility. The conservative spin on that is "There but for the grace of God go I."

I agree. Perhaps it's that this particular issue is too close to my heart, because I really have no compassion for people that hit kids. Even if I understand (but don't excuse) why they do it.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Argh! You guys all make very valid points. I actually agree with all of you. I generally can see people's motivations and feel compassion for them. But I have zero sympathy for a guy that beats a three year old to death. None whatsoever.

And at what point does personal responsibility come into play? There are those that are abused as kids that come out of it as wonderful parents. They learn from what their parents did to them and they do the opposite. Why do people that perpetuate the cycle get their behavior written off as ingrained?

I understand that it is difficult to change a pattern of behavior. But there are parenting classes, therapy, books they could read, and any number of other things they could choose to do to enable them to become parents that don't beat the sh!t out of their kids. Even the lowest income parents have access to a library. There are free parenting classes.

I don't understand people ever hitting a child. But beating them because they are a sissy? That's just horrendous.

This was the boyfriend. The biological father was in prison and, judging by the last names, probably was not married to the boy's mother. The two guys who did the killing probably have fathered kids that they're not looking after very well; most of my young clients have.

I think there are low income people, mostly women, who attend parenting classes, but I don't think this generally happens unless the system is involved in some way and they are threatened with the loss of their children.

Speaking of choices, you'd think women would not need a class to teach them not to get involve with violent men, men who won't use birth control, etc. And yet . . .

[tracilicious]

[quote=Ponine]
Do you think that "living through hell" does not predispose you to create it?
That what a child lives through, they might not always see as wrong? or that they oculd be predisposed the behavior because its what they lived with?[quote]

I guess I don't completely get why people don't make see the behavior that caused them so much suffering and go to extra effort not to cause that suffering for others. That obviously doesn't happen often. I just don't know why it doesn't.