The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 206

Ghoulish Delight · 04-18-2007, 10:01 AM

I suppose we shouldn't expect anything less from an administration so connected to Enron, but here's a story that's kinda flown under the radar. In violation of federal law, as well as being blatantly stupid in the wake of countless corporate scandals that have focused around email retention and the lack-thereof, the Whitehouse seems to have lost several million emails. These were sent on laptops and email accounts provided to staff by the RNC. They say that they may be able to recover many of the emails since 2004...but (and I'm looking for confirmation on this detail) I heard that the recovered data is unlikely to include Karl Rove's emails.

link

Alex · 04-18-2007, 10:16 AM

If they're supposed to keep them then I suppose it is stupid they didn't. But I think it is stupid they're supposed to keep them.

Having just lost six months of email I have no doubt that it is easy to do unless you're immediately copying everything from the central server to an optical storage medium.

Scrooge McSam · 04-18-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

But I think it is stupid they're supposed to keep them.

Why do you think that's stupid?

Ghoulish Delight · 04-18-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

If they're supposed to keep them then I suppose it is stupid they didn't. But I think it is stupid they're supposed to keep them.

Having just lost six months of email I have no doubt that it is easy to do unless you're immediately copying everything from the central server to an optical storage medium.

For an individual, it is certainly easy to loose everything. Even for a company it is. But when federal law specifically says that all Whitehouse communication must be kept, when people have been going to jail (or dying on the way there) for losing emails, and when the loss is discovered because an investigation that relies on just such communication retention is underway, you're in deep crap. Further complicated by the seeming unrecoverability of Rove's emails specifically. It could be complete coincidence, but that'll be a hard one to explain away.

Alex · 04-18-2007, 10:28 AM

Aren't these emails that were through the RNC, not the White House?

Like I said, if it is the law then it is stupid they didn't. But I also think the law is stupid.

Ghoulish Delight · 04-18-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Aren't these emails that were through the RNC, not the White House?

They were using RNC laptops and email addressed, but it included official White House content, definitely covered under the retention laws. At first they were saying, "Oh, it's just a handful of non-essential stuff done by staffers on these non-government-issue accounts." Further prodding produced the fact that it was far more serious than that.

Alex · 04-18-2007, 11:18 AM

I think we've gone overboard on the work product we expect government to retain and maintain.

I think the official decisioning documents need to be available but not everything that goes into that decision.

For example, here in San Francisco some group successfully sued to get the original Word document rather than the distributed PDF version so that they could see the entire change history for the document. So not only do we have the right to the final document but the very first draft, every typo, every reconsideration of phrasing. To me this is stupid.

This overload prodcues so much detail that, in my opinion, the context gets lost.

To require that every electronic utterance be retained is, in my opinion, stupid. We might as well also require every government worker to wear personal tape recorders while on the job so that we can also listen in on every conversation. And stupid rules lead to stupid violations, whether intentional or not. And stupid violations lead to criminalization of the process (everybody eventually breaks a law).

If they were intentionally circumventing the law, no matter how stupid, they should be punished for it. But that doesn't make the underlying law any less stupid.

wendybeth · 04-18-2007, 11:23 AM

If we've gone overboard, I think that's due to the government's adeptness at hiding **** from us. They work for us, Alex- much as they'd like to forget that. I think the decision making process plays a considerable part in the outcome (government contracts, anyone?) and needs to be documented. Moot point, though, if they 'lose' said documentation.

Alex · 04-18-2007, 11:30 AM

I don't disagree with that. I just don't think that subjecting every bit of minutae to second guessing, re-evaluation, and misinterpretation is productive either.

Ultimately I don't see these laws having any impact on the fundamental corruptness of our government, just on oppositions ability to create issues over which to pretend outrage. Which is all the attorney general thing is, trumped up pretend outrage. Covering up that which was not wrong in the first place is not a crime, it is just petty.

Alex · 04-18-2007, 11:34 AM

GD, that is like, in my view, the common "what about the woman who protects herself from rape" defense of easily available handguns. You can find individual good results for any policy.

But overall, I don't see a net positive in it.

04-18-2007, 10:01 AM	#1
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	I suppose we shouldn't expect anything less from an administration so connected to Enron, but here's a story that's kinda flown under the radar. In violation of federal law, as well as being blatantly stupid in the wake of countless corporate scandals that have focused around email retention and the lack-thereof, the Whitehouse seems to have lost several million emails. These were sent on laptops and email accounts provided to staff by the RNC. They say that they may be able to recover many of the emails since 2004...but (and I'm looking for confirmation on this detail) I heard that the recovered data is unlikely to include Karl Rove's emails. link __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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04-18-2007, 10:16 AM	#2
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	If they're supposed to keep them then I suppose it is stupid they didn't. But I think it is stupid they're supposed to keep them. Having just lost six months of email I have no doubt that it is easy to do unless you're immediately copying everything from the central server to an optical storage medium.
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04-18-2007, 10:28 AM	#5
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Aren't these emails that were through the RNC, not the White House? Like I said, if it is the law then it is stupid they didn't. But I also think the law is stupid.
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04-18-2007, 11:18 AM	#7
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I think we've gone overboard on the work product we expect government to retain and maintain. I think the official decisioning documents need to be available but not everything that goes into that decision. For example, here in San Francisco some group successfully sued to get the original Word document rather than the distributed PDF version so that they could see the entire change history for the document. So not only do we have the right to the final document but the very first draft, every typo, every reconsideration of phrasing. To me this is stupid. This overload prodcues so much detail that, in my opinion, the context gets lost. To require that every electronic utterance be retained is, in my opinion, stupid. We might as well also require every government worker to wear personal tape recorders while on the job so that we can also listen in on every conversation. And stupid rules lead to stupid violations, whether intentional or not. And stupid violations lead to criminalization of the process (everybody eventually breaks a law). If they were intentionally circumventing the law, no matter how stupid, they should be punished for it. But that doesn't make the underlying law any less stupid.
	Submit to Quotes

04-18-2007, 11:23 AM	#8
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	If we've gone overboard, I think that's due to the government's adeptness at hiding **** from us. They work for us, Alex- much as they'd like to forget that. I think the decision making process plays a considerable part in the outcome (government contracts, anyone?) and needs to be documented. Moot point, though, if they 'lose' said documentation. __________________
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04-18-2007, 11:30 AM	#9
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I don't disagree with that. I just don't think that subjecting every bit of minutae to second guessing, re-evaluation, and misinterpretation is productive either. Ultimately I don't see these laws having any impact on the fundamental corruptness of our government, just on oppositions ability to create issues over which to pretend outrage. Which is all the attorney general thing is, trumped up pretend outrage. Covering up that which was not wrong in the first place is not a crime, it is just petty.
	Submit to Quotes

04-18-2007, 11:34 AM	#10
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	GD, that is like, in my view, the common "what about the woman who protects herself from rape" defense of easily available handguns. You can find individual good results for any policy. But overall, I don't see a net positive in it.
	Submit to Quotes