Vatican to Ban Gay Priests

[MickeyD]

Originally Posted by Prudence

It's puzzling for me, a non-Catholic, that marriage should be lauded as a sacrament -- not just spiffy but a *holy sacrament* -- and also forbidden to the clergy.

Ah, but, they consider the sacrament that is available only to priests (& deacons), Holy Orders, to be even more holy than marriage.

[Morrigoon]

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

[alphabassettgrrl]

I think I love you, Prudence! Thanks for the history lesson.

'Goon, I think many people *do* equate homosexuality with pedophilia.

GC, I agree that among the most violent gay-haters are the closeted gay folks... so in that respect maybe keeping gay men away from the priesthood might be good. Then again, that just promotes denial. You can't lie because that's a sin, but to deny it... that's not a sin. It's a flaw, but not a sin so much. It's not something commonly thought of as a choice.

I actually think that a lot of self-hating gay men and perverts of all stripes go for religious orders. Not to equate them, except that both are strong, unacceptable urges. What better than to serve god? God will either cure you or take it on himself or solve your problem somehow. It doesn't seem to be as operative for women. Thus, we get these high level preachers, who devote themselves with all their hearts to god, and in the middle of the night have a secret. We get money scandals, sex scandals, their personal worlds collapsing when the secret demands to see the light of day. Jung called it the Shadow, and the more you repress it the more it demands. Preachers seem to be trying to lock it in a box in their heads and it doesn't work. You'd think we would have figured this out by now, but it doesn't seem we have.

As far as the celibacy thing goes, I agree that abstaining from sex is a good way to focus your energy on god. I disagree that it should be a permanent condition. Does work out well that celibate priests don't have children to ask about inheritance from the church... Ok, now I'm being cynical.

[Morrigoon]

Okay, excellent points.

Perhaps the church should demand a "period" of celibacy when taking orders, perhaps 2-5 years, in order to give their priests time to focus on God, but after that, allowing them to marry.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by alphabassettgrrl

GC, I agree that among the most violent gay-haters are the closeted gay folks... so in that respect maybe keeping gay men away from the priesthood might be good...

I have spoken with a man of the cloth who believes that being a priest will cancel out him being homosexual. I think this is why a lot of girls become Catholic priests.

I also know for a fact that a lot of gay priests clump together in the church and consider themselves a fraternity of sorts. Kind of like a pink Opus Dei. And apparently, it's a hard group to work with when you're a straight priest or deacon.

Interesting, no?

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

And that would be the early so-called "Celtic Church" which did include married people in holy orders -- raising kids and everything. Alas, I am not as well versed in the early history of church on the islands. (Except for Bede, my buddy pal.)

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by MickeyD

Ah, but, they consider the sacrament that is available only to priests (& deacons), Holy Orders, to be even more holy than marriage.

But the two sacraments were not always mutually exclusive. The adoption of a more ascetic lifestyle was gradual, in fits and starts, and not imposed from the beginning. In fact, there are those who argue that the church does not truly follow through with its alleged committment to the ascetic life -- witness the various reform-style heresies (Waldensians, Humiliati, etc...) -- and that it's historical accumulation of property is inconsistent with its mission.

But that would be an entirely different thread.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Prudence

And that would be the early so-called "Celtic Church" which did include married people in holy orders -- raising kids and everything. Alas, I am not as well versed in the early history of church on the islands. (Except for Bede, my buddy pal.)

Celtic church! Ooh, tell me more!

Here's a thought: could the suppression of information about Jesus' hypothetical marriage have come about at the same time that they decided priests should be celibate? Perhaps the suppression of that info was to give the impression that Jesus was himself celibate as a roving rabbi?

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

Celtic church! Ooh, tell me more!

Alas, I don't know much about it. I can't even give you a good timeline. But I suspect that geographic isolation contributed both to the persistence of local traditions and leniency from Rome. (If you can't get over there to enforce the rules, they can't get to where you are and foment rebellion, either.)

Aren't Aglican priests allowed to marry?

[PanTheMan]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

Perhaps they should let priests and nuns marry eachother, so they'll be equally yoked?

Then we would be back to Gay Marriage. Except this time it would be mostly Lesbians marrying Gay Men...lol