Is there no good news in the world? There's precious little in this thread.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Ya know, by and large, I do not support our troops.

You have my complete respect for making that statement. I believe that many people feel like you do, but try to throw a spin of "support" for our troops on it.

[SacTown Chronic]

Who's Katie Couric?

[lizziebith]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Ya know, by and large, I do not support our troops. I don't want any of them killed, but - though many did so as the only way to dig out of poverty - they volunteered for their duties. If they have the illusion that America is a beneficent military force, which it has rarely been since WWII, then I fault their judgment. If they recognize the U.S. military for what it is, then I fault their motives.

I wish them safety and a speedy return home to their families. I wish them free from trauma and guilt. I wish them free from committing barbaric horrors and from having such inflicted upon them.

But they went into this willingly, and I do not support their chosen avocation of war.

I agree. Except for the willingly part. Most of those folks are kids who signed on, as you pointed out, for economic reasons. Others joined up in a kind of "we won't actually go to war" hopeful mindset...(I know a couple of those). I think that the military doesn't provide full EMPHATIC disclosure to these kids it signs on as, um, militia-fodder these days. So I support the poor mis-guided folks hoping to get a college eddication who got Iraq instead. (or who thought it was going to be like a video game: have you SEEN the latest recruitment spots???) But I don't support what they got sent to. I think that's how most of us libs feel.

The current administration is playing fast-and-loose with the idea of "hero" to get more young folk to sign up. I don't like it.

ETA: but then again, I don't like much. Except you. You, I like.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by lizziebith

I agree. Except for the willingly part.

So, do you know longer support them when they reenlist? (The military is having trouble with recruitment but continues to have stronger than predicted reenlistment from soldiers who have actually been to Iraq.)

While I support the war (though not for the reasons that the Administration has flailed about trying to win the PR battle with) I do not think it is possible to be opposed to the war and support our troops. Opposition to the war means thinking we are wrong to be engaged in it. The appropriate result for a nation wrongfully engaged in war is defeat. The method of defeat in most wars is to have an awful lot of your soldiers killed.

It is fine to say that you don't want any soldier to die, but by opposing the war you are saying, in my opinion, that our soldier's death is preferable to their victory (which is a reasonable point of view, just not one I share in this case).

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

It is fine to say that you don't want any soldier to die, but by opposing the war you are saying, in my opinion, that our soldier's death is preferable to their victory (which is a reasonable point of view, just not one I share in this case).

I think you can always hope for non-violent solutions to a conflict - not everything need be reduced to a dicotomy of win-lose or Life- Death. It's that kind of thinking that causes violence to persist.

[Alex]

Yes, you can hope for a non-violent solution, but if in the absence of one you would prefer that we win, then how opposed to the war are you? Pretty much everybody would prefer that wars end without death.

By preferring that our soldiers successfully kill instead of being killed you are essentially saying "I'd prefer that there be no war at all, but if there is one then I support its success."

[lizziebith]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

So, do you know longer support them when they reenlist? (The military is having trouble with recruitment but continues to have stronger than predicted reenlistment from soldiers who have actually been to Iraq.)

While I support the war (though not for the reasons that the Administration has flailed about trying to win the PR battle with) I do not think it is possible to be opposed to the war and support our troops. Opposition to the war means thinking we are wrong to be engaged in it. The appropriate result for a nation wrongfully engaged in war is defeat. The method of defeat in most wars is to have an awful lot of your soldiers killed.

It is fine to say that you don't want any soldier to die, but by opposing the war you are saying, in my opinion, that our soldier's death is preferable to their victory (which is a reasonable point of view, just not one I share in this case).

When I said "except for the willingly" part, to which you are responding above, I was referring to the reasons for the initial enlistment of the soldier -- that is that many are in the service due to a lack of other career options. Well, maybe you did get that and are just extrapolating to the re-enlistment issue, which I still feel would be governed by the same conditions, plus familiarity. Can I hold that against the soldiers? Of course not.

I disagree that the appropriate result of opposition to the war is defeat (how about simple withdrawal?) and I don't at all get the leap from opposing the war to wanting the soldiers to die rather than be victorious. Those aren't the only options here. Withdrawal would prevent those deaths, wouldn't they? Are you equating withdrawal with defeat? And how is pursuing "victory" going to prevent more soldiers from dying?

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by lizziebith

Are you equating withdrawal with defeat?

While I realize you are directing this question at Alex, I most certainly would regard withdrawal as defeat.

Osama bin Laden cited our lack of ability to stomach the ugliness of casualities in Somalia as part of his strategy in his campaign of terrorism. Taking our troops out now would only continue to let terrorists know that we do not have the resolve to finish what has been started.

Debate why it was started all you want, though I would also say continuing to back down to Saddam and his violations of the cease fire agreements prior to the war gave the same message. Leaving now would most certainly be defeat because of the strengthed resolve it would give to those who want to inflict damage on the US.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

So, do you know longer support them when they reenlist? (The military is having trouble with recruitment but continues to have stronger than predicted reenlistment from soldiers who have actually been to Iraq.)

There are a couple of reasons for that. There is a lot of money promised if they re-enlist. There have also been reports (I don't know how wide spread) of denial of extended medical care if they don't re-enlist (I know someone who injured their knee during PT and was told if he didn't re-enlist they wouldn't fix it).

Then of course are the people who want to go back because they feel like they getting to do what they are trained to do (my ex is one of those).

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

But they went into this willingly, and I do not support their chosen avocation of war.

Many of them simply signed up for the national guard out of a sense of patriotism after 9/11. I'm sure they never in a million years envisioned that they would be sitting in an Iraqi desert being shot at and bombed.