"Liberal Queer"

[scaeagles]

My point in defending Keyes is not to get into morality issues regarding homosexuality. This was about the relationship between Keyes and his daughter, right? My point is that their relationship is not so uncommon - a loving parent child relationship where the parents disapprove of actions taken by their child.

It is not about Keyes' activism. The story was about his relationship with his lesbian daughter.

[Scrooge McSam]

The only reason this is a topic on these boards is Keye's activism.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I've got nothing more to add to this thread ...

I lied.

There are so many things wrong with Keyes's stance on his daughter. He's using his religious beliefs to judge his own daughter. These same type of beliefs were used by politicians against equality for people of color back in the 60s. How can he use the same logic to make judgements against his own blood? Skin color and sexual orientation are not a choice, religious beliefs are. He needs to rethink his 'logic'.

GD - I understand his logic, but it's half-assed logic. He's trying to say he loves his daughter but hates what she is. That makes no sense.

Keyes and other politicans like him, and religious leaders as a matter of fact, need to stop playing God.

And again, why are people like Keyes and Cheney in political leadership roles when they support legislation against their own children? If they can do that to their own children, they would do it to anyone.

And might I remind people that Obama blew Keyes away in their race. There's a reason that happened. One's an idiot, the other isn't. ('Jesus wouldn't vote for Obama.' ~ Keyes quote. )

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I lied.

GC lied. Nobody died.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics. It's who they are, it's as natural to them to be alcoholics as it is for you to be gay, but that doesn't mean I like that alcoholism exists, or that I don't want to help them deal with their alcoholism. There's no difference, on that side of things. If you feel the trait is destructive to them, you can still love them while disliking the trait. I might theoretically support legislation to force alcoholics into some sort of treatment (not really because that's a terrible way to address it, but it's a hypothetical analogy). I support laws that punish habitual violent criminals. These are all things that punish people for who they are.

Of course, where the divide occurs is the definition of destructive. Clearly I disagree with Keyes that homosexuality is destructive, that it shouldn't be legislated against or dispised. That I'm not arguing. That's a completely separate debate. Talk about that all you want, but I can't fathom questioning his love for his own daughter.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well said, GC. Although you pretty much negated the long post I just wrote, you said it more elequently than I was going to. Glad you chimed back in.

I've never been able to buy into the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy. It's great for the person espousing it because, in their mind, it absolves them of doing any harm. "We love you even though your thoughts and actions are evil" just doesn't cut it however. It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics.

You aren't born an alcoholic.
A man doesn't become gay because you OD on sleeping with too many men.

I'm lost on your comparison...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.

But how would you compare it to alcoholish? Everyone seems to agree that it's everyone's best interest for an alcoholic to pretend to be someone they can never be. People understand the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" there. Why is it so much different for homosexuality (other than the disagreement about it being a sin, but like I said, that's a separate question).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

You aren't born an alcoholic.
A man doesn't become gay because you OD on sleeping with too many men.

I'm lost on your comparison...

Actually, most studies show that you ARE born an alcoholic, that alcoholism runs in the family, and they have isolated some genes that seem to contribute to it.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics. It's who they are, it's as natural to them to be alcoholics as it is for you to be gay, but that doesn't mean I like that alcoholism exists, or that I don't want to help them deal with their alcoholism. There's no difference, on that side of things.

Here is the difference that I see. Alcoholism is destructive, not only in the eyes of God (if that is what you believe) but in the physical well-being of someone who drinks. By getting someone to stop drinking, you are doing a service to them and possibly saving their life.

Trying to pressure someone to stop being gay is destructive. Being gay isn't. And for those that say that God says it is, I would ask that they stop assuming that they have the right to speak for, and judge on the behalf of God.

edited to add: I posted before I saw your most recent post, GD. Still, I think this may somewhat serve as a response to your later post.