Sotu '06

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

(I can't believe that most people seem to be buying Bush's line that the warrantless eavesdropping is necessary, when warrantful eavesdropping would have the same results. If the American people are this dumb, they have just the government they deserve. Ladies and Gentlemen, the state of the union is Hopeless.)

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I guess I'll just be included with the dumb Americans and will get what I deserve

Would you mind explaining, scaeagles, why you believe warrantless wiretapping is more effective than the 72 hours that FISA allows for obtaining retroactive wiretap warrants?

I ask because I've yet to hear any justification from the Bush administration. Oh, I've heard the usual spin, obfuscation and macho posturing coming from those cats, but not any, ya know, facts that support their position.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Guess so. It's funny how most of the people who aren't living below the poverty line in this country don't see the poverty crisis, and those unaffected by the draconian laws such as the Patriot Act don't see the liberty crisis. I notice you didn't insist there was no health care crisis, since you are experiencing such fun with your insurance company. Funny how we only see what's right in front of our eyes, but it's a disservice to the rest of the world to deny the existence of that which we cannot see directly.

Go to Africa or central America or Haiti or....well, you get the idea....and then tell me about poverty. Most Americans below the poverty line have microwaves, shelter, a TV, access to transportation, etc.

I'm not saying I would wish to live below the "poverty line". I'm just saying Americans, for the most part, have no idea what true poverty is. True poverty exists all over. Just not a lot of it in America.

Interestingly, I do not think there is a health care crisis. I didn't address everything in your post. I've noticed not one doctor has recommended that I should go to Cuba for surgery. I notice that people from all over the world come to Mayo here just 15 miles from my home for treatment of the same disease I have. I am beyond thankful that I don't live in Canada. Medical tests such as I have had numerous times can take months to get there (one of the GI docs I've seen used to practice in Canada).

Now, granted, I have health insurance. I am dotting my I's and crossing my T's, as they have rules. They are a for profit business. They haven't made much money on my family, I'll tell you. It is not easy to pay for health insurance, and there are sacrifices involved, but I am thankful that I am able to do so and have it. However, I do not believe that should I not have health insurance that I would expect this to be any one elses problem.

I also have a pseudo MSA through my wife's employment. Slightly differing rules. We can basically pay for medical costs with pretax dollars. We commit to putting so much in this fund annually, automatically deducted from each paycheck, and then submit claims to get the money reimbursed. We forfeit any money in the account not used during that fiscal year. Great idea. I don't know the restrictions on it, but everyone should have one.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

Would you mind explaining, scaeagles, why you believe warrantless wiretapping is more effective than the 72 hours that FISA allows for obtaining retroactive wiretap warrants?

Honestly, I have no answer, I really don't know. I do have a thought.

Echelon is a system that basically monitors (or monitored - I really don't know if it is still in use) massive amounts of communications, recording conversations, and looking for keywords and/or phrases, and flagging those that the software decided needed human analysis. It could take days or weeks for those flagged calls to come under analysis

Again, I don't know the specfic rules of retroactive wiretapping. If it takes days for those flagged intercepts to be analyzed, it is certainly possible that it is outside the allowed 72 hours from when the message was recorded.

I recall during the 04 debates when Kerry was critical of Bush for around 100,000 hours of unanalyzed electronic communications. Were all those hours that had yet to be anaylzed approved with wiretaps? I sincerely doubt it.

Again, a theory. I have no solid answer for you Sac.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Again, "It's worse elsewhere" means it's okay to ignore problems at home?

[Moonliner]

God the arrogance of the Bush administration is just unbelievable. Freedom of speech and expression? Nope. A little common courtesy? Nope. Knee-jerk reactions and bullshoot platitudes afterwords? Oh yeah.

So the "official" explanation is: Yes, we of the capitol police force are a bunch of trigger happy yahoo's who just enforce the law, although we don't have a clue what the law is.

Sad as that is, I guess it does at least feel better than the truth of the Bush administrations actions: If you don't think like us, you are treasonous and deserve no rights or respect.

[Ghoulish Delight]

To be fair, they did the same thing to the wife of a Republican congressman who was wearing "Support the Troops" shirt.

[innerSpaceman]

They have to apply for the warrants within 72 hours of already having started the surveillance. The Administration does not have to delay for so much as 10 seconds a surveillance upon some American citizen receiving a celly from Mr. Ali al Queda overseas. As long as they start the process of seeking the rubber stamp warrant within 3 days, they can tap the phone without so much as a by-your-leave. All good and legal.

Forget that they've provided no facts for their treacherous course of action in defying FISA, but I can see no freaking purpose in it other than the acquisition of dictatorial power for its own sake.

* * * * *
On the poverty front ...

Again, "It's worse elsewhere" means it's okay to ignore problems at home?

Ah, if I could only say in a paragraph what GD can say in one line.

Without stooping to the canard that poverty in Detroit is so much better than poverty in Haiti ... tell me, scaeageles, would you like to live below the poverty line in the U.S.? C'mon, you'd have your microwave oven. Would the brand of posh poverty we have here in America be alright for you and your family?

Or how would you like to be YOU right now, and also be one of the 45 million Americans without health insurance? Would that be ok, as long as you didn't live in Canada?


How many people have to be below the poverty line in this country for it to be a crisis? How many must be without health insurance for it to be a crisis? When do budget deficits reach crisis levels, and just how eroded must civil liberties become to meet your definition of crisis?


Or is it even a matter of how much or how many? Is it rather just a matter of who?

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

To be fair, they did the same thing to the wife of a Republican congressman who was wearing "Support the Troops" shirt.

Um, to be perfectly fair ... she was removed from the chamber, but not arrested.

Cindy Sheehan was arrested for her T-Shirt.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

To be fair, they did the same thing to the wife of a Republican congressman who was wearing "Support the Troops" shirt.

Yank, grab, force, cuff, arrest, detain = Would you please step out?

I say it's just more proof they knew exactly what they were doing.



<< Edited to add: Damn, looks like ISM is not only better looking, but he types faster than me also... >>

[Gemini Cricket]

Get this piece of news I saw this morning:

One day after President Bush vowed to reduce America's dependence on Middle East oil by cutting imports from there 75 percent by 2025, his energy secretary and national economic adviser said Wednesday that the president didn't mean it literally.

What the president meant, they said in a conference call with reporters, was that alternative fuels could displace an amount of oil imports equivalent to most of what America is expected to import from the Middle East in 2025.

But America still would import oil from the Middle East, because that's where the greatest oil supplies are.

The president's State of the Union reference to Mideast oil made headlines nationwide Wednesday because of his assertion that "America is addicted to oil" and his call to "break this addiction."

Source

So, he said it, but didn't mean it. Did daddy's friends in Saudi Arabia give him a call after his speech? Is this how he deals with an 'addiction'?