Are you racist?

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

How can we separate race from nationality from religion when we can't even agree on which is which?

That is one of the reasons I didn't put Jewish people on my list (which was a joke until it was picked apart - unfunny bastards - <---that was a joke, too) because I'm confused about the matter.

So, am I to say I am a Catholic because I was born into the faith and baptized? I resigned from the Catholic Church in '97, so I'm no longer officially Catholic or am I?

Confused again. Which ain't hard, baby!

[Alex]

I have no problem recognizing "Jew" as a race, I just treat it first and foremost as a religion. I'm not confused about what being "Jewish" is. Just as you are still a Jew without being observant it is possible for a non-genetically-Jewish person to become Jewish at least religiously. Historically it is the religious side of the coin that has lead to separation and harrassment of Jews, not the racial side of the coin (in fact, during a strongly anti-semitic period in 18th century it was simultaneously in vogue to theorize that the British people were of Judaic origin).

But yes, it is a tricky issue because the exact definition of "race" and "racism" are to large extents in the eye of the beholder.

Are the Japanese and Chinese people separate races? How about Italians and Greeks? Canadians and Americans? Haitians and Dominicans? If the Japanese had tried to kill all the Singaporeans in Singapore during WWII were they committing genocide or ethnic cleansing and what exactly is the difference between the two.

What I was pointing out above (in humorlessly picking apart GC joke) was that the question of racism is only made more difficult when issues of culture (nuture) are equated with race (nature). If you run into a rude white Frenchman, do you decide it is because he is white or because he is French or just because he is rude? If surveys show that on average the French are ruder than Spaniards, is it because of racial or cultural differences? Is it invalid to point out that by at least one standard the French are, on average, ruder than Spaniards?

Is stereotyping people because of culture more, less, or similarly offensive as stereotyping people because of race?

Arabs are genetically inclined towards behaviors that, by Western standards, are misogynistic.

Arabian cultures are, by Western standards, mysogynistic.

While Mullah Bob is mysogynistic, you can make no generalizations about Arabs as a race or Arabian cultures.

How do those three sentences fit into what is racist and what is not?

Of course, then there is the fact that in academic anthropology and genetics circles you'll find debate as to whether the concept of "race" is even a valid one.

[Not Afraid]

I really can't separate race from culture as two independant factors that make up a person. They are intertwined like a DNA helix.

I'm Scotish, English, and Irish but, cultrually that has little influence on me. It only influences my predisposition for certain physical traits. Culturally, I'm 80% So Cal with a heavy dose of "back East" thrown in. But, I'm much less complex than many others in this world - my husband being a good example of more cultural blending.

You know, I was warned by my Mom that Germans hold grudges. So, who married me fro a 2nd time? Some Kraut. Go figure.

[innerSpaceman]

Which is why I think we oughta just use the term "racism" more loosely, since there's no valid replacement term out there. Nationality, race, religion, gender and sexual orientation all come under the umbrella of the stereotypes and discrimination we are usually talking about when we talk about "racism."

We don't we just accept that the term encompasses far more than "race" (whatever that is) and throw some thought into the more interesting (imo) topics of whether we are racists, to what degree, what we might propose to battle the effects of racism on either a personal or world level?



I'll go first.

I have no solutions. I agree with GD that stereotypes can be useful for a quick, preliminary analysis - but that's as far as they should go. I think affirmative action is deeply flawed, and deeply necessary. There's nothing on this earth that going to stop me from my personal bigotry against Germans and arabs.

I get ticked off when blacks get upset with gays for comparing the struggle for gay rights with the struggle for civil rights.

I get ticked off when jews (specifically Israelis) act towards others (cough*Palestinians*cough) with the same oppression that jews themselves have complained of for centuries.

I'm bummed that I'm too lazy to learn Spanish at my age, and somewhat resent that it's become necessary to speak two languages in my region of the United States.

I'm generally glad that I've always lived in racially diverse cities, but note that I have experienced and seen that people, in general, tend to mix only with members of their own race. I have very few friends that are not white, and I usually see Asians with Asians, Latinos with Latinos, and blacks with blacks. It's good that I see plenty of blacks and Latinos and Asians, but I look forward to a time when we all mix it up a little bit more.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Prudence]

Interesting. My perception up in our frosty PNW is that asians, latinos, and whites intermix a fair amount, at least in my social circle, but not so much with blacks. But cross the mountains to the east and there's a serious white/latino split. Of course, I know that perceptions vary. My school buddy is from LA and armenian/coptic egyptian, and to her eye we skew way white and exclusionary.

It might be my perception that's off, come to think of it. I tend to run in "misfit" circles and if we are skewed toward the white, the misfit circle might be more diverse than the surrounding population.

[blueerica]

Interesting thoughts going on in here. I've had to do a great deal of thinking on this in my ethnic lit class, and I suppose that I've never really liked the term race, nor the idea that DNA has anything to do with anything. I prefer to refer to these things under the terms ethnicity, and culture, especially since I am now spending a great deal of time thinking and talking about it.

Though I wouldn't have thought I made stereotypical assumptions often, I find myself doing so more based on dress and speech than anything else. I find myself identifying with those like myself. I tend to disregard skin color, and look at the book they're reading, or the clothing that they wear, maybe even the music that they listen to, and make assumptions as to what they might be like, or what they might do in their free time.

As others have stated above, I must add that I'm not fond of affirmative action legislation. From a business standpoint, a business should hire whomever will do the job best, for a fair wage. Skin color shouldn't be an issue... do what is best for your business, you racist sonofa...

Government would be wiser to find ways to actually improve the education system (and I don't condone throwing money at the problem), from which we will get gifted minds, no matter what they might look like on the outside.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by blueerica

Interesting thoughts going on in here. I've had to do a great deal of thinking on this in my ethnic lit class, and I suppose that I've never really liked the term race, nor the idea that DNA has anything to do with anything.

That's another interesting line of discussion to begin. I persoanally don't see how genetics can't be a contributor to behavior. I have little doubt that identical twins, for instance, will have more in common with each other behaviorally than even fraternal twins do.

That being said (and I've made this argument several times in the past), that's only part of the equation. I believe there's a range of degrees one can be genetically predisposed to certain traits. Some traits a person will exhibit no matter what their environment. Some will only be triggered if they're raised in a certain environment. And others will never show up no matter the environment. So while I think it's being a bit blind to say, "Behavioral differentiation between 'races' based on genetics is bogus", I think it's equally blind to think that one can separate the genetics from the environment.

It's all a matter of macro vs. micro. On the macro level, from a statistcal perspective, one can show that a wide sampling of people of X 'race' will be affected differently by some environmental factor than a similar sampling f people of Y 'race'. But on the micro level, everyone's an individual and while you can make some educated guesses, it's a falacy to assume things about an individual based on those broader statistical analyses.

[blueerica]

I would actually agree with you, GD, quite a bit. There are things that I do, food preferences, sense of humor, that I share with family members I only see occasionally... but I see those similarities on a micro level, not a macro level. It is the society in which these various ethnicities grow through that creates a label on themselves as a group, and the labels we apply toward one another, as groups.

For myself, I have a hard time justifying having a belief about someone before I get to know them, based on their ethnicity. I cannot know the circumstances of how someone's life has affected them, or how someone's genetics may or may not have played a role. DNA within an ethnic group plays a far greater role in terms of biological function, shared genetic weaknesses (diabetes, various diseases and "syndromes"), or even strengths, than personality, or ability to think, which is where the center of most "racist" thought comes from. Crazy is as crazy does, and crazy can be genetically transferred on (loose terms) in the micro level, whether you're black, white, red, yellow or brown. I just don't see the argument genetics even playing a deciding role on a person's behavior.

On a side note, a long looong time ago I dated a black man. When I decided that we would be better off as friends, the first thing out of his mouth was "It's because I'm black, right?! I didn't pin you for being a racist..." I was shocked. My reasons were only because the conversation was a little dull for my tastes, but I never did forget his immediate reaction - the assumption that *I* was racist, likely only on account of my being white.

[Alex]

An personal anecdote on how "racism" is a term with many definitions to many people.

Back in college I took an expository writing class and one of the papers was on Spike Lee's film Do the Right Thing. I forget what the exact topic was, but when explaining the assignment the instructor explained that we could not make an argumen that any of the black people in the film were racist since it is, by definition, impossible for a black American to be racist. Part of racism is being in the dominant power group.

Any paper that made such an argument would fail.

Me being me I made such and argument just because this pissed me off so much. Got and F on the paper, got a C in the class and never stepped foot in the University of Washington Department of English again.

I don't have a problem with the idea of ambigous concepts with fuzzy areas around the edges, but when being labelled as "racist" or "racism" has only strongly negative impacts then I think the term needs to be narrowly defined so that everyone knows what you mean by it. For many saying "some types of racism are more acceptable or understandable than others" is like saying "some forms of rape are more ok."

Just as the expansion of the word rape to include increasingly less rape-like activities dilutes the horror of actual rape, the expansion of "racism" to include increasingly less "racist" behaviors dilutes the horror of actual racism.

The expectation that we all react with equal horror to the statement that perhaps there are racial difference in native intelligence or athleticism (which generally would only show up at the extreme ends of the distribution curve) as with the statement that blacks shouldn't be allowed in the same room with whites will, if nothing else, lead to outrage fatigue.

[blueerica]

Oh, god, and I just had to watch Birth of a Nation. What a piece of crap that film is, technical achievements or not...