The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 469

Strangler Lewis · 09-04-2009, 06:30 AM

I suppose I would prefer to see any essay topics phrased as "How I Can Help My Country/State/City" than how I can help any particular office holder. I think, however, that the only way that opposition to this event can be principled rather than paranoid is if you think that no president has any business addressing school children about anything. This means no "How can I help President Bush/America win the war on terror," no "How can I help President Roosevelt/America win World War II" Etc. It probably also means no civics or, rather, no teaching of civic responsibility, since people clearly differ on how much we should be allowed to depend on/intrude on one another.

When I was in Fourth Grade, my teacher's adult son was shot and nearly killed in a mugging in New York City. The substitute, or maybe the principal, made us all write letters to Mayor Lindsay, Governor Rockefeller and, I believe, the New York City Chief of Police asking them to make the streets safer. My mother still has Mayor Lindsay's response framed, and I thought it was pretty cool at the time.

On the other hand, perhaps the whole project was inappropriate. There was probably an implicit racist cast to the whole undertaking since New York city crime was inevitably about the blacks and the Puerto Ricans. There were probably sophisticated union issues involved that fourth graders had no business weighing in on, and Lindsay had enough problems with the unions.

Mousey Girl · 09-04-2009, 07:11 AM

The way the (Bakersfield) local schoo odistricts are phrasing it is that they don't show the students anything that has not been reviewed. This is a standard policy, across the board, no matter who is wanting to address the students.

Now, if Nickolas was in high school, and this was shown in a government class, and was open for discussion I would not have an issue. I do have an issue with him in 7th grade, no real discussion allowed. We discuss politics in my house, we review both sides of an issue. When he makes a black or white statement, we discuss that there are shades of gray that also need to be seen.

My parents are ultra conservative. Bakersfield is mostly conservative. I do my best to show him that is more than one way to look at things. I can't count the times he and I have debated about what he heard over at my parents. For an example, he knows that The Old People oppose gay marrage. He knows that I support gay marrage. We talked about it at great length.

Every one is entitled to their own opinion. I may not agree with that opinion, but it doesn't make it any less valid than mine.

BarTopDancer · 09-04-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I'm glad it's available. I was not aware of that.

Of course you weren't. To be aware of that, so you could educate yourself would go against the "Well I just don't trust him and I don't want my kids to see it...because if they do I might have to hold an intelligent discussion with them about why I feel the way I feel and answer questions and.... *gasp* find out they might feel differently then me". And as a toaster-touting paranoid Republican that just can't happen.

Does that about sum it up?

Ghoulish Delight · 09-04-2009, 07:31 AM

Settle.

scaeagles · 09-04-2009, 07:52 AM

I believe I said I would be willing to watch it with them for the purposes of discussion with them. You think I avoid discussing things with my kids because they might think differently than me?

Strangler Lewis · 09-04-2009, 08:04 AM

This all calls to mind a high school assembly from the late '70s that I actually did not attend for some reason. I believe Euro did, however.

As it was described to me, the speaker entered the gym to address the assembled students. He then proceeded to run down America and tout the virtues of the Soviet Union. I don't recall hearing if this provoked a response or not. At some point, however, the speaker revealed that it was an all just an act and that he was simply dramatizing the ideological assaults that the students would be confronting in the real world.

Great work if you can get it. I don't recall if parental consent was solicited for this show.

scaeagles · 09-04-2009, 08:10 AM

High school - great. I think for kids that are at the level of being able to think critically about such things it is a wonderful exercise. Elementary school - I don't think the reasoning capacity exists to make value judgements on such things.

BarTopDancer · 09-04-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Settle.

Simmadownnow

Strangler Lewis · 09-04-2009, 08:23 AM

I certainly think it's reasonable for schools to say to high school kids, "You should be able to figure out what you believe, articulate why you believe it and see the strengths and weaknesses in contrary positions." However, I very much doubt that this was the purpose of the exercise in 1970s Orange County. It was us=good, them=bad, and seductive dangers lurk around every corner.

I also doubt that the school intended the students to take critical opinions on the event itself, i.e., that it was ridiculous.

09-04-2009, 06:29 AM	#4681
DreadPirateRoberts Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,483	VAM
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09-04-2009, 06:30 AM	#4682
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	I suppose I would prefer to see any essay topics phrased as "How I Can Help My Country/State/City" than how I can help any particular office holder. I think, however, that the only way that opposition to this event can be principled rather than paranoid is if you think that no president has any business addressing school children about anything. This means no "How can I help President Bush/America win the war on terror," no "How can I help President Roosevelt/America win World War II" Etc. It probably also means no civics or, rather, no teaching of civic responsibility, since people clearly differ on how much we should be allowed to depend on/intrude on one another. When I was in Fourth Grade, my teacher's adult son was shot and nearly killed in a mugging in New York City. The substitute, or maybe the principal, made us all write letters to Mayor Lindsay, Governor Rockefeller and, I believe, the New York City Chief of Police asking them to make the streets safer. My mother still has Mayor Lindsay's response framed, and I thought it was pretty cool at the time. On the other hand, perhaps the whole project was inappropriate. There was probably an implicit racist cast to the whole undertaking since New York city crime was inevitably about the blacks and the Puerto Ricans. There were probably sophisticated union issues involved that fourth graders had no business weighing in on, and Lindsay had enough problems with the unions. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes

09-04-2009, 07:11 AM	#4683
Mousey Girl Just Me Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In The Flagon With The Dragon Posts: 2,437	The way the (Bakersfield) local schoo odistricts are phrasing it is that they don't show the students anything that has not been reviewed. This is a standard policy, across the board, no matter who is wanting to address the students. Now, if Nickolas was in high school, and this was shown in a government class, and was open for discussion I would not have an issue. I do have an issue with him in 7th grade, no real discussion allowed. We discuss politics in my house, we review both sides of an issue. When he makes a black or white statement, we discuss that there are shades of gray that also need to be seen. My parents are ultra conservative. Bakersfield is mostly conservative. I do my best to show him that is more than one way to look at things. I can't count the times he and I have debated about what he heard over at my parents. For an example, he knows that The Old People oppose gay marrage. He knows that I support gay marrage. We talked about it at great length. Every one is entitled to their own opinion. I may not agree with that opinion, but it doesn't make it any less valid than mine.
	Submit to Quotes

09-04-2009, 07:31 AM	#4685
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Settle. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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09-04-2009, 07:52 AM	#4686
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I believe I said I would be willing to watch it with them for the purposes of discussion with them. You think I avoid discussing things with my kids because they might think differently than me?
	Submit to Quotes

09-04-2009, 08:04 AM	#4687
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	This all calls to mind a high school assembly from the late '70s that I actually did not attend for some reason. I believe Euro did, however. As it was described to me, the speaker entered the gym to address the assembled students. He then proceeded to run down America and tout the virtues of the Soviet Union. I don't recall hearing if this provoked a response or not. At some point, however, the speaker revealed that it was an all just an act and that he was simply dramatizing the ideological assaults that the students would be confronting in the real world. Great work if you can get it. I don't recall if parental consent was solicited for this show. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes

09-04-2009, 08:10 AM	#4688
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	High school - great. I think for kids that are at the level of being able to think critically about such things it is a wonderful exercise. Elementary school - I don't think the reasoning capacity exists to make value judgements on such things.
	Submit to Quotes

09-04-2009, 08:23 AM	#4690
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	I certainly think it's reasonable for schools to say to high school kids, "You should be able to figure out what you believe, articulate why you believe it and see the strengths and weaknesses in contrary positions." However, I very much doubt that this was the purpose of the exercise in 1970s Orange County. It was us=good, them=bad, and seductive dangers lurk around every corner. I also doubt that the school intended the students to take critical opinions on the event itself, i.e., that it was ridiculous. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes