Whatever you do, don't take my finger!

[Alex]

I try not to apply standards of "humane" to animals. They're animals and as much as I like having pets, they're still simply possessions and sometimes things are done for convenience that would never be done to another human for any reason.

That said, I would not base the argument against declawing on the amount of pain felt by the pet but rather on the fact that, as has been metioned, sometimes indoor-only cats find themselves in the outside world. A declawed cat is essentially a defenseless cat and I personally wouldn't view the benefit of less household damage to outweigh the risk of a cat unable to defend itself. But that is a personal calculus and while I wouldn't agree with someone who decided differently I figure it is a personal choice.

My decision regarding spay and neutering also has little to do with what will happen with a cat properly contained but rather with a cat that suddenly isn't. I neither want my cat impregnated nor other feral cats impregnated. If there were a readily available relatively cheap chemical sterilization option I would probably use it over surgery.

Finally, I have no issues with the state of my penis. In fact, I liked it so much I had it done twice. If I were to descend into the hell that would be parenthood I would not circumcise my children, regardless of gender. Not because I'm opposed but because I don't see any positive reason for me to have it done.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

The claim that people make regarding the inhumanity of the claw surgery is that it is overly painful. Any surgery is very painful.

So is beating my dog/cat, which causes pain the same as surgery?

Is allowing my dog/cat to go through the pain of childbirth inhumane?

Perhaps humane/inhumane is something more than just surgery/pain?

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

You are working on misinformation about the differences between "female modification" and the Jewish Bris. The female procedure, done by some Islamic cultures, removes the freakin' pleasure centers. The Bris removes a flap of skin unnecessary for sexual pleasure.

Actually, no I'm not.

As to my ill advised rant of yesterday, I wan't even talking about a Bris. I was talking about the radical circumcisions performed in hospitals. Reading back, I understand that I have to take a lot of backlash about that, because I realize I was not NEARLY as specific as I thought I was being.

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I've witnessed many a Bris. The rabbi (who also always a certified MD) uses a scalpel. No pulling or ripping involved. The exterior flap is removed. And the baby is given a small amount of wine on a cloth to suck on.

And you're right. The Bris has almost none of the characteristics of the surgery I'm talking about. I don't doubt what you've seen, nor do I doubt your ability to comment on that authoritatively. Please afford me that same courtesy.

I'm willing to bet that you have NOT seen a radical hospital circumcision performed. A radical circ is so different from a Bris as to make it difficult to even compare the two. It would be somewhat akin to comparing cutting your fingernail to having your fingernail pulled out by the root. GD has a post upthread making note of the difference in the 2 procedures.

A Bris involves removing the tip end of the prepuce that extends past the end of the glans. The glans is uninjuired in this procedure if done correctly. Yes, there is damage to the body, but not on a scale even approaching the damage caused by a radical circ. A radical circ involves slicing the foreskin lengthwise and tearing it away from the surface of the glans, literally skinning the glans alive.

Radical circumcision as performed in hospitals is very similar to female genital modification. 75% of the erogenous tissue of the penis is removed during a radical circumcision. The same is not true of a Bris.

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Scrooge, I love ya, please don't insult me.

CP, I want to thank you for addressing this in thread. It's been brought to my attention how my post was received and I appreciate the opportunity to set this right. Editting the original post seemed dishonest, so I'm happy to clear up any misunderstanding this way. I hope this post has done that.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I chose to NOT have my sons circumcised- if they want it done they can get it done themselves!

As long as they don't actually DO it themselves. Did you happen to see the most recent episode of the TV show House? All I can say is "OWWWWWWWIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE"!

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

As long as they don't actually DO it themselves. Did you happen to see the most recent episode of the TV show House? All I can say is "OWWWWWWWIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE"!

OMG, we just watched that episode last night. I had to pause Tivo for a while to recover from the shock of it. I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable for quite a while afterwards.

For those who do not watch House (and you should - it's a great show), here is what happened (this is NOT for the squemish - hence the spoiler tags):

Spoiler:

A man came into the hospital clinic. Seems his current sex partner-to-be had never had an uncircumsized man and wasn't about to start with him. Man is jonesing for some action, so he gets himself a bax cutter (steriling it of course ) and proceeds to attempt a self-circumcision. I'm getting the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it.

As far as the comparison between declawing and spay/neuter: while any of the procedures are surgery, spaying or neutering is highly beneficial to the cat population at large (by decreasing the SEVERE cat overpopulation issue), whereas declawing is simply for the convenience of the owner.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

As far as the comparison between declawing and spay/neuter: while any of the procedures are surgery, spaying or neutering is highly beneficial to the cat population at large (by decreasing the SEVERE cat overpopulation issue), whereas declawing is simply for the convenience of the owner.

Of ourse, the cat population at large got to that state (over population; bred traits that make bearing litters a health risk) due to human actions.

[Scrooge McSam]

*You must spread some Mojo around before giving it to Nephythys again.*

[Nephythys]

awww, I so rarely see those sort of posts LOL

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I had my ear mutilated. It was a horror, but ya know ... I just kinda like the way it looks, so I did it. Hole put right through. Damn. And it hurt.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Yeah, I had my ear mutilated. It was a horror, but ya know ... I just kinda like the way it looks, so I did it. Hole put right through. Damn. And it hurt.

Wus.