The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[scaeagles]

Well, as ridiculous as this is and I DO NOT believe that health care supporters are Nazis, it is true that Nazi Germany moved toward government control of health care.

So I suppose it happens to be the intentional choice of those issues to draw specific moral comparison that is problematic and outrageous. I do not believe our medical system to be immoral, yet those things he mentioned clearly were.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And Harry Reid has compared opposition to the current health care reform to opposition of civil rights, abolishing slavery, and giving women the right to vote.

From this link:

"Instead of joining us on the right side of history, all the Republicans can come up with is, 'slow down, stop everything, let's start over.' If you think you've heard these same excuses before, you're right," Reid said Monday. "When this country belatedly recognized the wrongs of slavery, there were those who dug in their heels and said 'slow down, it's too early, things aren't bad enough.'"

He continued: "When women spoke up for the right to speak up, they wanted to vote, some insisted they simply, slow down, there will be a better day to do that, today isn't quite right.

"When this body was on the verge of guaranteeing equal civil rights to everyone regardless of the color of their skin, some senators resorted to the same filibuster threats that we hear today."

a$$hole.

Sorry. I happen to think that he is 100% correct.

[scaeagles]

I am not surprised.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

So I suppose it happens to be the intentional choice of those issues to draw specific moral comparison that is problematic and outrageous. I do not believe our medical system to be immoral, yet those things he mentioned clearly were.

I don't consider our medical system immoral, but I consider aspects of our health insurance system immoral. Logical, and prudent for business reasons, but inhumane.

[Alex]

I also don't think our current healthcare system is immoral (though I also don't think that of the proposed healthcare system or single-payer government run healthcare). But I'm also pretty sure that in a few decades my saying that will be viewed as woefully misguided and Reid's view will likely be accepted as basically correct by most people.

That said, my objection to Reid's statement is that it is one without meaningful content. Essentially he said "every controversial legislative change made in this country has had people saying 'let's not do this right now and not in this way.'"

Duh. If there weren't, it wouldn't be controversial.


All that said, I'd say it is a substantively different comment (even if devoid of any real content) form drawing connections between the current proposals and Nazi-ism. You can debate whether mandated health insurance for all will one day be seen widely as an obviously good and necessary change to have been made. You can not, however, say that government controlled healthcare (which in it's current incarnation none of the proposed bills currently create anyway) is a step towards Nazi-ism. It may be something in common but it is no more a causal link than is a government-funded highway system an inevitable step towards Hitler's Germany.

So drawing connections between it and Nazis is spurious on its face in a way I'd argue differs significantly from drawing connections between the future perception of this debate and other examples from American history.

All of that said (again), of course Reid is trying to lay a mental connection between opposing healthcare and opposing the Civil Rights Act. It's a dirty rhetorical trick. But it is on more solid ground (and orders of magnitude less hysterical) than Nazii comparisons.

[Betty]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And Harry Reid has compared opposition to the current health care reform to opposition of civil rights, abolishing slavery, and giving women the right to vote.

From this link:

"Instead of joining us on the right side of history, all the Republicans can come up with is, 'slow down, stop everything, let's start over.' If you think you've heard these same excuses before, you're right," Reid said Monday. "When this country belatedly recognized the wrongs of slavery, there were those who dug in their heels and said 'slow down, it's too early, things aren't bad enough.'"

He continued: "When women spoke up for the right to speak up, they wanted to vote, some insisted they simply, slow down, there will be a better day to do that, today isn't quite right.

"When this body was on the verge of guaranteeing equal civil rights to everyone regardless of the color of their skin, some senators resorted to the same filibuster threats that we hear today."

a$$hole.

As someone who has no healthcare - I disagree. You speak from a the point of view of someone who has a doctor for their kids when they are sick. We go to the CVS minute clinic - and I'm eternally gratefull for it. My husband - who had health care through his work - was laid off. It's not available through mine because not enough of our staff will participate. (factory workers don't seem to want to.)

So - what in the heck am I supposed to do if one of my kids breaks an arm? Or worse - what if something tragic happens and I end up in the hospital?

What then? I'm fvcked is what!

So - I'm all for not slowing down. Give me access to staying alive thank you very much.

This really pisses me off. You must be so much more deserving then we are or something - perhaps it would just be easier for all of you with health care if all of us without were to just die off then you wouldn't need to share your precious doctors and hospitals with us lowly people.

How sad is it then we have to tell our kids - we can't participate in that because if you get hurt we won't be able to pay for the doctor and the roof over our head/food to eat etc.

How about this - why don't you go without health care for awhile, wait for your kids to get sick or need surgery or something, and get back to me.

[scaeagles]

Oh good lord....where did I say any such thing? All I did is say it is offensive to compare opposition to this particular health care reform bill to opposition to the abolishment of slaery or denying women the vote. Geez. Get off it. NOWHERE did I say nor did I even suggest that I am more deserving than you.

Does your situation suck? Yeah, it does. Does that mean I have to think this particular way of going about health care reform is great or I am like someone who doesn't think slavery is that bad?

THAT, Betty, is what is offensive.

Don't pretend you know me or what I have been through in my life. I happened to have been one of those kids like yours when I was growing up.

[Betty]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Oh good lord....where did I say any such thing? All I did is say it is offensive to compare opposition to this particular health care reform bill to opposition to the abolishment of slaery or denying women the vote. Geez. Get off it. NOWHERE did I say nor did I even suggest that I am more deserving than you.

Does your situation suck? Yeah, it does. Does that mean I have to think this particular way of going about health care reform is great or I am like someone who doesn't think slavery is that bad?

THAT, Betty, is what is offensive.

Don't pretend you know me or what I have been through in my life. I happened to have been one of those kids like yours when I was growing up.

We've been through this before and I believe you said something along the lines that there wouldn't be enough doctors for you if everyone gets health care... you would have to wait too long... etc...

And frankly - I think access to health care IS up there with voting and slavery. After all - you can't vote if you're dead.

[scaeagles]

I did say there would be a doctor shortage, but a doctor shortage for everyone, not just me.

[JWBear]

Something that those who are still comfortably ensconced in their middle-class lives (and that includes me) need to realize is that, the way things are going, there will not be a comfortable middle-class much longer. This country is rapidly being polarized into a very very wealthy minority ruling over a vast population of the poor.