Societal norms, the Moral Majority and a rant that feels so good - Page 6

Alex · 11-01-2005, 04:50 PM

I have no idea what you mean by "opinion-forming/decision-making" at least not if it is somehow distinct from judgment.

I am of the opinion that children should not be allowed to play at the home of a crack addict, even if there is no sign that the crack addict has never put children at risk.

But really, that is just a judgment of a behavior. So, how is opinion-forming distinct from judgment?

innerSpaceman · 11-01-2005, 05:54 PM

I guess one way of making the distinction is a) deciding that a crack habit is not for you (or your kids) vs. b) deciding that a crack habit is bad/evil/objectively wrong.

Another way of making the distinction would be a) deciding that having a crack habit is a poor choice vs. b) deciding that the crackhead is a bad or evil person.

In all cases, an analysis and determination is made. But the judgmental attitudes of holier-than-thou or I-know-all-about-you-via-this-one-thing or my-way-is-the-right-way-for-all-on-this-earth ... those attitudes are not necessary parts of the process, and are what, imo, separate opinions from judgments.

Not Afraid · 11-01-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

This is one prime example of why judgmentalism is BAD. How often are we really judging ourselves and not the purported external objects of our judgment?

Well, I think we are judging others in that situation. I may have done something stupid in the past. I now know it is stupid. I can define it as stupid. If someone is doing the same thing, they are stupid because they are doing the same act that I now think is stupid based on experience.

I guess it is one of the benefits of age. You can see others doing stupid things and say - damn, I've done that and boy was I stupid. It usually makes me glad I'm older and wiser.

Cadaverous Pallor · 11-01-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Well, I think we are judging others in that situation. I may have done something stupid in the past. I now know it is stupid. I can define it as stupid. If someone is doing the same thing, they are stupid because they are doing the same act that I now think is stupid based on experience.

I guess it is one of the benefits of age. You can see others doing stupid things and say - damn, I've done that and boy was I stupid. It usually makes me glad I'm older and wiser.

I know that saying now that I won't judge others as "stupid" for doing something that comes naturally to a person of a certain age is just as naive as when I promised myself I'd never forget what it was like to be 6 years old. But still, I wouldn't call the judgemental condescending attitude that creeps up on us a "benefit of age".

I'm going to try to allow people to have their own growing pains and not judge a 20 year old by a 40 year old's standards. I don't tell my teenage brothers that they're stupid because they don't have the judgement that I have. It's absurd. It's one thing to try teach others the lessons you've learned, but it's another to call them stupid because they haven't gotten there yet.

Not Afraid · 11-01-2005, 06:40 PM

Why? I was stupid then, why shouldn't I call others stupid when they do the same thing? It didn't suddenly become a smart idea in the last 10 years.

€uroMeinke · 11-01-2005, 06:43 PM

I think we need to define judgement. Myself, I judge people all the time, "what an idiot" I might exclaim as someone cuts me off. But I rarely call people "bad" or "evil" - then again as a moral relativist, I really don't believe in those things.

Going back to the OP - I think you just have to aknowledge the fact that in this big world there will be people who don't like you for a variety of reasons, sometimes with grounds, often time without. In the end, I believe we hang with the people we want to be with and who want to be with you. Sometimes it's sad to see an old relationship sour, but it happens all the time and it's usually best to look forward than back

wendybeth · 11-01-2005, 06:46 PM

If some young kid goes out, gets drunk off his ass, and then plows into my car- I'm gonna call him stupid. (If I survive). In fact, any time someone younger does something that impacts me negetively, you bet I'll call it like I see it. People called me on it when I was young and stupid, and I intend to carry on the tradition. However, the only time I venture an opinion is when mine is requested, or they've done something that affected me or mine on a personal level. The rest of the time, I am good with just sitting back and watching them make an ass out of themselves.

Not Afraid · 11-01-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendybeth

The rest of the time, I am good with just sitting back and watching them make an ass out of themselves.

Yes, you can't discount the entertainment value of others' stupidities. If nothing else, it makes me grateful.

innerSpaceman · 11-01-2005, 06:52 PM

As most people with children can tell you, human offspring seem to require learning everything for themselves ... with far too little observing what to do from parents. There are times when we'd rather have bear cubs than human kids. Animal babies seem to learn from their mamas; human kidlets seem to learn only from personal experience. It can be maddening.

But it's why we, imo, should not harshly judge 6-year-olds for being stupid, or 17-year-olds for being lame, or 26-year-olds (ahem) for not making the wise decisions that are clear to me at 45 (but were just as obscured when I myself was 26 ... or 17 or 6).

* * * * *

And it's so interesting how we can all judge Crystal's ex-friend for the crime of having judged Crystal.

Don't get me wrong; I think the ex-friend is a lametard asshat. But how far off is that judgment from the one that judged Crystal in the first place? It's a vicious cycle.

€uroMeinke · 11-01-2005, 06:54 PM

I give mojo all the time - I consider that a judgement

11-01-2005, 04:50 PM	#51
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I have no idea what you mean by "opinion-forming/decision-making" at least not if it is somehow distinct from judgment. I am of the opinion that children should not be allowed to play at the home of a crack addict, even if there is no sign that the crack addict has never put children at risk. But really, that is just a judgment of a behavior. So, how is opinion-forming distinct from judgment?
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11-01-2005, 05:54 PM	#52
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I guess one way of making the distinction is a) deciding that a crack habit is not for you (or your kids) vs. b) deciding that a crack habit is bad/evil/objectively wrong. Another way of making the distinction would be a) deciding that having a crack habit is a poor choice vs. b) deciding that the crackhead is a bad or evil person. In all cases, an analysis and determination is made. But the judgmental attitudes of holier-than-thou or I-know-all-about-you-via-this-one-thing or my-way-is-the-right-way-for-all-on-this-earth ... those attitudes are not necessary parts of the process, and are what, imo, separate opinions from judgments.
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11-01-2005, 06:40 PM	#55
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	Why? I was stupid then, why shouldn't I call others stupid when they do the same thing? It didn't suddenly become a smart idea in the last 10 years.
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11-01-2005, 06:43 PM	#56
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	I think we need to define judgement. Myself, I judge people all the time, "what an idiot" I might exclaim as someone cuts me off. But I rarely call people "bad" or "evil" - then again as a moral relativist, I really don't believe in those things. Going back to the OP - I think you just have to aknowledge the fact that in this big world there will be people who don't like you for a variety of reasons, sometimes with grounds, often time without. In the end, I believe we hang with the people we want to be with and who want to be with you. Sometimes it's sad to see an old relationship sour, but it happens all the time and it's usually best to look forward than back __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-01-2005, 06:46 PM	#57
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	If some young kid goes out, gets drunk off his ass, and then plows into my car- I'm gonna call him stupid. (If I survive). In fact, any time someone younger does something that impacts me negetively, you bet I'll call it like I see it. People called me on it when I was young and stupid, and I intend to carry on the tradition. However, the only time I venture an opinion is when mine is requested, or they've done something that affected me or mine on a personal level. The rest of the time, I am good with just sitting back and watching them make an ass out of themselves. __________________
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11-01-2005, 06:52 PM	#59
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	As most people with children can tell you, human offspring seem to require learning everything for themselves ... with far too little observing what to do from parents. There are times when we'd rather have bear cubs than human kids. Animal babies seem to learn from their mamas; human kidlets seem to learn only from personal experience. It can be maddening. But it's why we, imo, should not harshly judge 6-year-olds for being stupid, or 17-year-olds for being lame, or 26-year-olds (ahem) for not making the wise decisions that are clear to me at 45 (but were just as obscured when I myself was 26 ... or 17 or 6). * * * * * And it's so interesting how we can all judge Crystal's ex-friend for the crime of having judged Crystal. Don't get me wrong; I think the ex-friend is a lametard asshat. But how far off is that judgment from the one that judged Crystal in the first place? It's a vicious cycle.
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11-01-2005, 06:54 PM	#60
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	I give mojo all the time - I consider that a judgement __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
	Submit to Quotes