Iranian election

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I thought Arabs and Jews making peace was a sign of the end times. Shows you what I know.

In the sense of a humorous response yes.

In the sense of there being a very significant strand of Christian Zionism among fundamentalist evangelical Christians in the United States (not all but a significant portion) that believes that total dominion over the Holy Lands by Israel is a necessary element to Jesus's return (and therefore any compromise reducing that territory is not acceptable and the human/civil rights of Palestinians are irrelevant). That's the minimum, some strands see actual conflict as being necessary.

In fiction, see the Left Behind series. More significantly see The Late Great Planet Earth (while maybe the biggest seller of these ideas it is hardly a lone voice in the wilderness in certain evangelical circles), which was the best selling work of non-fiction in the 1970s. Its position is Biblical prophecy says that re-establishing Israel was just the first step but the final step will be an apocalyptic battle between Islam and Israel (at Megiddo, recreating a 7th century BC battle between Egypt and Judea). The conclusion of which will see the return of Jesus to rule over the world.

Of course, once Jesus returns, all of those Jews in Israel will be converted or suffer the fate of all the other unfaithful. To non-believers (like me), the creepiest part of much evangelical support for Israel is that it is not offered altruistically but because it is seen as a step to ending the world.

Israeli politicians have not been at all shy about taking advantage of this strand of uncritical American support (see Netanyahu appearing at John Hagee's Cornerstone Church in San Antonio).

[wendybeth]

Many of the banners and signs seen in the demonstrations are in English. I don't think it's just a cynical ploy to enlist the aid of the west, but rather an indication to the world that the current regime is not representative of the people in general. Iran is a very complicated country- the people are mostly Persian, not Arabic, and although they share a religion it is (or was, prior to the revolution) different enough to be branded 'Persian Islam'. They have always been relatively independent and a wild card in the region. I think the majority of Iranians do not despise the US, at least not to the degree that other nations in the Middle East do, and I have sympathy for them. They were taken over by the fanatics, and are trying to find their way out.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Many of the banners and signs seen in the demonstrations are in English.

Just curious (I really do not know the answer), but could that be because you are watching Western television which is only/mainly showing the English signs knowing that their viewers would not be able to read Arabic?

[Alex]

Two thoughts I've been having:

1. Wouldn't it be wryly amusing if the current government of Iran fell due to erroneous perceptions of election fraud (this is not to say that even if not a single vote were tampered with that the results are legitimate, due to societal intimidation).

2. Assuming the vote totals were manipulated, what would have happened if they'd just given Ahmadenijad a 55% victory?

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Just curious (I really do not know the answer), but could that be because you are watching Western television which is only/mainly showing the English signs knowing that their viewers would not be able to read Arabic?

Since most of the reports are coming via Tweet and YouTube, I don't think so.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Since most of the reports are coming via Tweet and YouTube, I don't think so.

Lol- I meant Twitter.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Alex

In the sense of a humorous response yes.

In the sense of there being a very significant strand of Christian Zionism among fundamentalist evangelical Christians in the United States (not all but a significant portion) that believes that total dominion over the Holy Lands by Israel is a necessary element to Jesus's return (and therefore any compromise reducing that territory is not acceptable and the human/civil rights of Palestinians are irrelevant). That's the minimum, some strands see actual conflict as being necessary.

I find the whole prediction of the end times somewhat ridiculous. Hitler was the antichrist. Then Stalin. Israel being a state in 1948 was a sign of the end. Then a biblical generation of 40 years went by and 1988 was to be the beginning of the end. I find it amusing, for those who believe in the Bible when it says the no one knows the time of Jesus' return, that so many try to predict it.

[Alex]

I agree that predicting the end times (though we do know roughly when the universe will likely cease to have any matter) is ridiculous. But then I also think it is ridiculous to believe in the divinity of Jesus so to me they're both pretty much equally odd. Once you've accepted the latter, the former seems like a baby step.

That said, this particular strain of end days prediction doesn't so much set a date as say that the Bible details some pre-requisites and seeks to bring them to fruition (thus their support for Israel, they may not know when exactly the end will happen but if it won't happen until after Israel is re-established then seeing that done would be a good thing).

[innerSpaceman]

Pfft, 2012. Everybody knows that.



Just you wait.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

I want to have sympathy for those fighting for democratic reform in Iran, I really do. But when I try, I am reminded how they feel about me--how they would summarily jail and/or execute me just for being who I am. So I'm finding it very difficult to muster up any feelings of good will. I'm not proud of this, I'm just saying how I feel.

I totally dig what you're saying, and I'm glad you brought it up. This is the trap America fell into after 9/11 (and the trap the Israelis and Palestinians have been in forever) - they hate us so let's hate them, they would torture us so let's torture them. It may feel good, but I state unequivocally - this is not the path towards peace.

The "leftists" over there may not be support even the more conservative stances in America, but still, oppression is oppression, and these people are being oppressed. The main issue Mousavi ran on is Freedom of Expression, which is a pivotal way that a group can open itself up to all kinds of ways of life, including yours and mine.

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Iran is a very complicated country- the people are mostly Persian, not Arabic, and although they share a religion it is (or was, prior to the revolution) different enough to be branded 'Persian Islam'.

The predominant religion there is Shiite Islam. Shiites put a lot of emphasis on martyrs, which is why this story is now huge. In 1979, there were demonstrations, and then the martyrs of those riots were celebrated in other demonstrations, which then created more martyrs, and the crowds grew and grew. After a year of this the Shah fell.