The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

JW, I completely understand what you were saying. I'm irritated by people who think that opposition to illegal immigration is de facto racism.

And I'm all for putting an end to illegal immigration. What angers me is those who seek to demonize, not only the illegals themselves, but legal immigrants and Hispanics in general. These are human beings who want a better life for themselves and their families, not monsters out to destroy our country.

[scaeagles]

To an extent, I agree. However, there is a portion (how large I do not know) that believes that the Southwestern US actually belongs to Mexico.

As far as demonizing legal immigrants, the only place I see a blurring of the lines is by these protesters themselves. Most refuse to talk about the problem for what it is, being illegal immigration. Most always refer to it as an immigration protest, leaving the word illegal out of it.

This is not a debate about legal immigration. Protesters are trying to equate what is legal and what is not.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

As far as demonizing legal immigrants, the only place I see a blurring of the lines is by these protesters themselves. Most refuse to talk about the problem for what it is, being illegal immigration. Most always refer to it as an immigration protest, leaving the word illegal out of it.

This is not a debate about legal immigration. Protesters are trying to equate what is legal and what is not.

Yes, it is this intentional blurring of the issue that drives me crazy. I always hear "Hey, we are all immigrants", and this is true for the most part. We are not all illegal immigrants though. We didn't all break the law to get here. My great-granparents waited in line at Ellis Island and followed the proper channels.

And that is the problem that I have. Becoming a legal immigrant is not an easy process. It is a slap in the face to the millions of people, including Mexicans, Canadians, Russians, etc. who had enough respect for our laws to go through the proper process to become citizens. I would not be happy at all if I waited literally years to become a citizen, only to find that that those who just walk over the border are not punished or deported. How is that fair?

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

How is that fair?

I hear what you are saying. But we were weak in the past about enforcing the rules. How then can we suddenly get all up in arms about the people who got through? Well, how did they get through? Shoddy border security. You can have a tougher presence now and make it harder for people to get in illegally now. However, it's hard to say 'Okay, now that we're paying attention, everyone who we didn't see get in is a felon.' ???

Personally, I find someone who floated here on a raft to be pretty courageous. That's moxie. We should include those people who would do that to get here. My friend goes to Harvard. Her family floated here from Cuba when she was 6 or so on a freakin' raft. What are we supposed to say? 'Darling, you didn't fill out the right forms. You must take your raft and go back?' My friend is an undergrad at Harvard now. She's going to be a brilliant professor in biochemistry someday. Her family busts their butts to pay her tuition... They are legally American now, but initially they weren't. But they were so unhappy with their country that they came here to make a change and they did. To me, it's patrotic to say, 'If you would risk your life to be here, then you should be here.'

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I hear what you are saying. But we were weak in the past about enforcing the rules. How then can we suddenly get all up in arms about the people who got through? Well, how did they get through? Shoddy border security. You can have a tougher presence now and make it harder for people to get in illegally now. However, it's hard to say 'Okay, now that we're paying attention, everyone who we didn't see get in is a felon.' ???

Yes, we have been weak on this issue but if I rob someone and don't get caught, haven't I still committed a crime? If they find out about it years later, they surely aren't going to say "Well, we were a little lax when you committed the crime so, even though we now know you committed it, you are free to go". A crime was commited and there should be a penalty, even if the person isn't caught immediately.

Personally, I find someone who floated here on a raft to be pretty courageous. That's moxie. We should include those people who would do that to get here. My friend goes to Harvard. Her family floated here from Cuba when she was 6 or so on a freakin' raft. What are we supposed to say? 'Darling, you didn't fill out the right forms. You must take your raft and go back?' My friend is an undergrad at Harvard now. She's going to be a brilliant professor in biochemistry someday. Her family busts their butts to pay her tuition... They are legally American now, but initially they weren't. But they were so unhappy with their country that they came here to make a change and they did. To me, it's patrotic to say, 'If you would risk your life to be here, then you should be here.'

You know what? I see the courage in these acts as well, and I am well aware that these aren't necessarily bad people who are doing this. I sympathize with them and were I in the same situation, I very well might take the same course of action. I don't fault them, I fault the mexican government and I fault ours for letting this situation get so out of hand. Still, replace the kind family you mention above with a rapist and tell me it's no big deal that they didn't go through the proper channels (which might have prevented it). Most people that come into this country are good, hard working people. Some are absolutely not though and we have no way of determining whether a person who snuck across the border wants to work, or detonate a dirty bomb at Disneyland. The legal process can determine if someone that wants to move here has a prior record and they can be prevented. Illegally crossing the border means that we have no idea what your background is. That is a major problem.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Yes, we have been weak on this issue but if I rob someone and don't get caught, haven't I still committed a crime?
...
A crime was commited and there should be a penalty, even if the person isn't caught immediately.

Yes, but outside of being here illegally, don't these people also do us a lot of good? ie. These people are working the fields in Salinas. I don't see any kids right out of high school picking artichokes...
I don't put illegal aliens and thieves and rapists in the same boat. I don't think it's a black and white issue like that. I think some good comes from them being here.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Still, replace the kind family you mention above with a rapist and tell me it's no big deal that they didn't go through the proper channels (which might have prevented it). Most people that come into this country are good, hard working people. Some are absolutely not though and we have no way of determining whether a person who snuck across the border wants to work, or detonate a dirty bomb at Disneyland. The legal process can determine if someone that wants to move here has a prior record and they can be prevented. Illegally crossing the border means that we have no idea what your background is. That is a major problem.

I don't see what you're saying here. Someone who comes here legally could rape someone. Someone who was born here could do the same. The legal processes fail us all the time. Your statement, MBC, illustrates to me that the fear tactics that have been used about this issue are working.

The real issue at hand is that Americans are in this weird space right now where people are rising up in fear of people who are different. Post 9/11, America is a tough place to be if you're Muslim, Jewish, black, Latino, gay... Everything is a threat to our country or a threat to our moral fiber. Well, are those things really a threat to us? ie. People have been coming over illegally for many many decades now. Have we crumbled? People need to have more faith in their country's ability to survive than that. If every person who comes here illegally has the potential to topple us, then something's wrong with us (the U.S.).

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

My great-granparents waited in line at Ellis Island and followed the proper channels.

As did mine. And my mother went through the proper channels to come here from Canada. My Aunt, who has been here for close to 60 years was facing some immigration issues recently and there was concern she'd have to go back to Canada (she lived her entire adult life here. She has nothing and no one in Canada). Thankfully they were straightened out.

[scaeagles]

I'd give mojo if I could, MBC, so a loud and proud "AMEN, BROTHA!" is coming your way and will have to suffice.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Of course, the blurring of the line goes both directions, and that's the objection to the "facts" that btd posted. It's a clear attempt to equate "Hispanics are criminals" to the illegal immigration issue.

Tangentially, the Equal Employment Opportunity Comission lists "Hispanic" as a race.

[Alex]

Or perhaps it is just implying that illegal immigrants are criminals. If the numbers were to turn out to be true, would they be racist? Is it not possible to hold the opinion that illegal immigrants are more likely to engage in criminal activities without it being an indictment based on race? I think the poor and marginalized are more likely to be involved in criminal activities regardless of the race category of the poor marginalized people. It just so happens that in illegal immigrants tend to be poor and marginalized and tend to be overwhelmingly Latino.

I don't see that as racist.


Also the EEOC only considers "Hispanic" a race by first excluding from the meaning of "hispanic" all the non-Latino Hispanics. So, yes, by defining "hispanic" to mean "latino" then you do get closer to something like a "race." But since there are millions of Asian Hispanics the EEOC is using a non-standard meaning of the word.

The U.S. Census does not consider Hispanic a race which is why the EEOC has to provide detailed instructions on how they convert an Ethnicity (Hispanic) into a race (Hispanic).