Could you forgive someone who shot you?

[CoasterMatt]

The lunatics have taken over the asylum...

[Kevy Baby]

If we weren’t all crazy we would go insane

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Actually, now that I menition it, to dispute something Alex said earlier, a computer's random number generator is NOT truly random.

Maybe it was in a different thread but I don't recall making any claims about random number generators. The randomness I mentioned earlier is introduced by quantum fluctuations and collapsing probability fields where even with identical input the output could be different. At the macro level of perception these things aren't really relevant to the way we live or experience the universe but it is easy too imagine them affecting brain chemistry which occurs at the atomic level.

Kevy Baby, you're just making the same point I am. You say it is free will because that is what you experience and that is good enough for you. I say it seems like free will but without an underpinning theoretical framework that explains how free will might exist I see no reason to assume it actually is. Unless and until something dramatically changes in our ability to observe and experiment on the universe, we'll never be able to differentiate the two.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Kevy Baby, you're just making the same point I am. You say it is free will because that is what you experience and that is good enough for you. I say it seems like free will but without an underpinning theoretical framework that explains how free will might exist I see no reason to assume it actually is. Unless and until something dramatically changes in our ability to observe and experiment on the universe, we'll never be able to differentiate the two.

If you are saying it is not free will because it cannot be proven that it is free will, and I am saying it is free will (a nebulous notion to be begin with) because it cannot be proven that it isn't, then yes, we are effectively making the same point.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Maybe it was in a different thread but I don't recall making any claims about random number generators. The randomness I mentioned earlier is introduced by quantum fluctuations and collapsing probability fields where even with identical input the output could be different. At the macro level of perception these things aren't really relevant to the way we live or experience the universe but it is easy too imagine them affecting brain chemistry which occurs at the atomic level.

Kevy Baby, you're just making the same point I am. You say it is free will because that is what you experience and that is good enough for you. I say it seems like free will but without an underpinning theoretical framework that explains how free will might exist I see no reason to assume it actually is. Unless and until something dramatically changes in our ability to observe and experiment on the universe, we'll never be able to differentiate the two.

Wow, I want to sit down for several hours and listen to you talk about quantum physics. That stuff totally rules.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Maybe it was in a different thread but I don't recall making any claims about random number generators.

Wow, I've apparantly manufactured a memory. I could have sworn there was a post about random number generators somewhere. Ah well, it still lead to a good point.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

If you are saying it is not free will because it cannot be proven that it is free will, and I am saying it is free will ... because it cannot be proven that it isn't, then yes, we are effectively making the same point.

Which begs the question, why go to the (imo morbidly pessimistic) extreme of assuming that there is no human free will?

Perhaps the answer can be found in the differing experiences expressed thus far in this thread.

[Alex]

I don't see what is pessimistic about it (or morbid for that matter). But it is the different worldviews I was talking about somewhere around here. Lacking evidence most people are perfectly happy to pick an explanation they like and assume it true. I don't seem to work that way.

Lacking evidence of free will I see no reason to assume it. I don't expect many people to agree with me but to me it is the same as saying since I can't prove it doesn't exist I'm going to believe that somewhere is a pair of jeans with a front left pocket that is magically always filled with money, and if I believe in it hard enough and search for it long enough I will eventually be a very rich man. After all, while there is no evidence such a thing exists, I also can't prove definitely it doesn't, so I'll pick the option that makes me happiest.

I know those two things are likely completely different to you, but not so much to me.

[innerSpaceman]

Yes, but what is it about that choice that makes you happy? Why does that appeal to you and make you feel good? Please know that I am not asking so that I can be judgmental about it. It just seems (to me) like a most unhappy way to view the subject.

Does leaving everything you do to physics absolve you of responsibility somehow? Does it leave you with a blissful lack of concern for results? What exactly are the happy things that result for you from your belief that free will does not exist?

[Alex]

Honestly? I'm perplexed as to why the nature of the universe need make me happy, or appeal to me. Why do I believe that gravity is a result of distortion in spacetime caused by matter rather than that matter was once a single throbbing mass of passion and that it yearns to be together again? Is which one makes me happiest supposed to play a role in which one I think is correct? It seems strangely egotistical to assume that universe is structured around my desires. Especially since different people have different desires.

Does a lack of free will absolve me (and everybody else) of responsibility? Technically, yes. But then we're wired to perceive responsibility into everything and I have no problem with putting someone in prison because they molested a child or considering someone distasteful for sitting around all day doing nothing and complaining about being fat. Again, in our universe as it stands there is no experimental way to differentiate free will from simple mechanics. Did the guy molest and I condemn because we both chose to do so or because mechanics produced both? Either way the result is the same.

But having this view of the universe doesn't make me any happier than does the idea that at standard temperature and pressure a mole of gas will occupy a volume of 22.4 liters. Factual content is removed from personal satisfaction.

I'm generally a very happy, content person. I suspect that ultimately this is just an accident of brain chemistry but I have no problem going along with it.