Nothing like proving the point-

[Motorboat Cruiser]

No argument from me at all that the peaceful Muslims are not doing enough to counter the radical idealogy of the extremists. Until they step in, there won't be peace.

I suppose the thing that bugs me, however, is that prior to our invasion of Iraq, it was only the extremists that hated us. Now, I think the reason that the moderate Muslims aren't speaking up is that they are appalled at our actions as well. I seem to remember a very different attitude from the moderates after 9/11. There were many in the middle east that denounced the actions of Osama Bin Laden and his ilk. Now, they see us locking up people without a trail, some of which who are undoubtably innocent. They see us trying to change the law so that it is easier to torture. They see us building humungous bases in Iraq but neglecting the rebuilding of the infrastructure. This isn't the America they once knew and any fragile support that we once had has been decimated.

So I agree that they aren't doing enough to achieve the peace. I just don't think that, overall, they have seen much reason to, given that our attitude is to basically do whatever we want, whether the world is with us or not, and regardless of even our own laws and constitution.

Former secretary of state Colin L. Powell said yesterday that he decided to publicly oppose the Bush administration's proposed rules for the treatment of terrorism suspects in part because the plan would add to growing doubts about whether the United States adheres to its own moral code.

"If you just look at how we are perceived in the world and the kind of criticism we have taken over Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and renditions," Powell said in an interview, "whether we believe it or not, people are now starting to question whether we're following our own high standards."

Of course, I suppose it is just about time for the right to begin demonizing Colin Powell and branding him a islamo-fascist sympathizer. But he still makes a very good point.

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I suppose the thing that bugs me, however, is that prior to our invasion of Iraq, it was only the extremists that hated us. Now, I think the reason that the moderate Muslims aren't speaking up is that they are appalled at our actions as well. I seem to remember a very different attitude from the moderates after 9/11. There were many in the middle east that denounced the actions of Osama Bin Laden and his ilk. Now, they see us locking up people without a trail, some of which who are undoubtably innocent. They see us trying to change the law so that it is easier to torture.

There's not enough mojo in the world for this post.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I suppose the thing that bugs me, however, is that prior to our invasion of Iraq, it was only the extremists that hated us.

MBC, while I typically find your posts to be grounded in reality, this is simply so far out there that I just don't get it. Either that or your definition of extremist is much broader than mine.

Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11. Practically the entire populations of Syria and Iran. A large portion of the Islamic world has always hated the west, and the US in particular.

[innerSpaceman]

Both are right. But as it was mostly the Palestinans, Syrians and Iranians joyfully boogying to the 9/11 beat, now it's most Muslims worldwide, in my opinion.

And it's not enough to say that they all hate Americans. Our government and military have given them, and the world, good cause. But they hate "the West." That includes, and is especially dangerous to, Europe. They are slowly but surely conquering that continent, and they hate the Europeans despite not having the same rational cause they do for hating the Americans.

Muslims would hate us all no matter what we did. Our elected government and tax-funded military are also doing whatever they can to ramp up Muslim and world hatred and fear ... but that's not the entire story.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

MBC, while I typically find your posts to be grounded in reality, this is simply so far out there that I just don't get it. Either that or your definition of extremist is much broader than mine.

Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11. Practically the entire populations of Syria and Iran. A large portion of the Islamic world has always hated the west, and the US in particular.

The entire population of Iran? Hardly.

This is from an American journalist who was living in Iraq around 2000-2001...

The last time I heard anyone in Tehran publicly say anything positive about the United States was in 2001. During the noontime rush at the bank on Vali Asr Street, a middle-age woman grew furious at the teller who refused to cash her check and yelled out in frustration, “If the Americans come, I’ll kiss their boots myself!” Everyone looked up momentarily and then went about their business.

Back in those days — 2000 and 2001, when I first lived in Iran as a journalist — Iranians were looking on jealously as U.S. soldiers removed the Taliban from power in neighboring Afghanistan; it was a moment when the United States competed with soccer for popularity. You could not buy a newspaper or ride a taxi without hearing the plaintive question: “When will Americans come to rescue us?”

Iranians romanticized the United States as a benevolent power at that time, and they were besotted with tokens of American popular culture. Young couples who could not speak English celebrated Valentine’s Day; U.S.-style fast-food places served hamburgers and shakes to endless lines; Barbie (smuggled in from Dubai despite the U.S. embargo) became the most coveted birthday gift of Iranian girls, and authentic Coke was the preferred beverage of Iranians under 30.

Bear in mind that in 2002, young Arabs in cities such as Cairo, Egypt, were burning down Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants and boycotting U.S. products in anger at American support for Israel, yet a poll conducted in 2001 found that 74 percent of Iranians supported restoring ties with the United States.

And another...

It is this reporter's opinion that in the midst of a growing controversy over Iran, it's time to take a closer and perhaps more objective look. Last January Vice President Dick Cheney said Iran was right at the top of the list of potential trouble spots. Yet despite the current turmoil and decades of anti-American propaganda from the Iranian government, many Iranians express admiration for the United States.

The paradox of Iran is that it just might be the most pro-American – perhaps the least anti-American – populace in the Muslim world. (Those under 30 are too young to remember the anti-American sentiment of the '50s and '60s and share little of their parents' ideology.)

I will agree that our perceptions of reality differ greatly.

[Alex]

I won't argue with the validity of the view but this sentence is really weird:

Back in those days — 2000 and 2001, when I first lived in Iran as a journalist — Iranians were looking on jealously as U.S. soldiers removed the Taliban from power in neighboring Afghanistan;

It's weird since we weren't removing the Taliban from power until the middle of October 2001. It sounds as if Iranians were experiencing some premature jealousy.

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I will agree that our perceptions of reality differ greatly.

You see headboard, whereas scaeagles sees only the pillow.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

You see headboard, whereas scaeagles sees only the pillow.

Great metaphor and presented in terms that even scaeagles can understand. Perfect!

[sleepyjeff]

I mostly just see mattresses.........every blanking day

[JWBear]

I see the dust bunnies under the bed. (Need to take my medication now....)