People of WalMart

[innerSpaceman]

It seemed my dad LIVED to embarrass me. And not on purpose. Such hijinks would not have embarrassed me. Now, of course, I'm embarrassed to have been embarrassed by such tame dad things.


I used to love embarrassing my own kid once in a while. Good for the soul.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Agreed that "white trash" exists at all tax brackets.

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

As a practical matter, whether it's in our social relationships or our legal ones, there is only so much room for case specific understanding before bright lines get drawn, and we say, "I'm sorry, that's f*cked up."

Complete agreement on this one. Everyone has a line.

Originally Posted by katiesue

I'll throw on a wrinkled pair of sweats and a old t-shirt to go to the store etc. And I fully expect other shoppers to have a what the hell thought bubble over their heads, like in cartoons, if they glance my way. And that doesn't bother me.

I can dig this, though it got me thinking.

Now that everyone is carrying a camera in their pocket, and everyone has access to the internet, we're all basically on camera, all the time. And yet we dress and act much less "proper" in public than we ever have. Perhaps, over time, this will actually affect how people act in public? Maybe one day we'll be back to wearing high heels and makeup and double breasted suits and hats everywhere we go, like it's 1945? Ok, maybe not. But it does make me think twice about how I leave the house.

Originally Posted by Alex

But, to me, there is a leap between elbowing your friend while walking down the street and saying "doesn't sheek look quite the skank?" or "isn't that the stupidest haircut you've ever seen" and much hilarity ensuing and creating a web site where you post the pictures for the world to ridicule based on your criteria.

I have to say that I don't see much difference here at all. We actually do have a few photos of the freaks we've seen around, shots we secretly took of people (yes, at Disneyland), and there have been many instances when we were annoyed we couldn't get the shot (we aren't craven enough to walk up and stick a camera in someone's face). I believe there was at least one instance where we got a shot of a strange looking person (dinner after the shorts, one year, I believe) and posted it for the board to see.

Seriously - you're in the public arena, you may get photographed, you may get made fun of. Everyone in the world needs to grow a thicker skin, because this is for real, and it is not going away. You never know, you may be the next Star Wars Kid or David After Dentist. Be prepared.

A friend of mine just posted some back-in-the-day photos of me and my friends to Facebook and I wouldn't be surprised if they resurfaced with snide comments much as €'s photos have. I can't wait!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I have to say that I don't see much difference here at all.

I see such a huge difference that it is amazing to me that anybody else wouldn't see it. So I guess we'll just have to disagree.

Seriously - you're in the public arena, you may get photographed, you may get made fun of.

Yes, that's true. But just because rudeness is inevitable I don't see the need to gleefully participate.

"If you don't like people making fun of you publicly, don't be ugly in public," seems to shift the burden of politesse in a direction I'd rather not see it go.

Plus, as has been discussed a lot of the commentary sparked by these pictures was not simply "don't these people deviate fro the accepted norm of physical and sartorial appearance in an amusing way, ha ha" but also went on to make judgmental assumptions about those people's underlying character and value. Big difference between "ha ha, we sure dressed funny in high school" and "ha ha, you're a skank\uneducated\inbred\mentally ill\not worthy of human respect\morally deficient because you wear those clothes."

[flippyshark]

I value my privacy, so I'm very not keen on the "new openness" that technology has brought us. I've recently had to ask camera-happy co-workers not to post candid pictures they have taken of me in the workplace. Next thing I knew, said pictures were on Facebook and garnering unwelcome comments. I'm officially unhappy with these people, given that my reasons were very personal, and my requests were made in good faith. "Because we can" is a frightening place to put the ethical bar. And it sucked being told I was spoiling other people's fun by even mentioning how unhappy it made me.

Yes, now and forevermore, going out in public opens us all up to observation, documentation and potential media ridicule. I might suggest that it's all in good fun if the subject has given consent. (I would happily put high school and community theater pics of myself up for public scrutiny.) But having people record me in vulnerable moments and post with my specific non-consent is deplorable behavior among friends, and ought to be cause for reflection among those who would post pictures of strangers with the intent to deride.

Just posting this makes me sound a lot less fun than I really am - but it's heartfelt.

[flippyshark]

On quite another hand, I would kind of enjoy it if we got back to elegant day to day fashion. (And this coming from an inveterate lazy dresser.) Specifically, dresses and hats. I'd love to have a gentlemanly hat to respectfully tip to others, and though I strive to be 21st century, I admit that dresses add an alluring femininity that drives me wild. I also like jackets, but I live in Florida, so, no thanks to that.

[Strangler Lewis]

You have a very eclectic wardrobe.

I'm all for more dressing up. The one thing I do scratch my head over is how men used to wear a coat and tie to the ballpark. Maybe they were all taking long work breaks at afternoon games, but I find those old photos strange.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Alex

"If you don't like people making fun of you publicly, don't be ugly in public," seems to shift the burden of politesse in a direction I'd rather not see it go.

I think this is where the disagreement lies. To my mind it has always been this way. It's the same to me whether you are at Disneyland, snickered at by a few thousand people in one day or whether you're posted on a blog, snickered at by a few thousand people. Yes, it could go viral and hit the million mark, but dare I say that is still rare enough. I don't see much difference there.

Regarding making judgmental assumptions about underlying character and value - again, this happens anyway. If people will write it down, people will think it while walking around.

I think what's happened is that those people who would never think such things, or at least try to suppress the urge to think such things, are surprised at what's written about these people. I guess I'm outing myself as someone who does think "what the hell are they wearing". The idea that you can think that and not make assumptions about that person seems silly to me. I dressed like a freak myself at times, and I was fully aware of the reaction people might have, which is part of the reason for doing it, of course.

As I mentioned earlier I didn't have much choice in wardrobe as a kid and I'm sure that people looked at me and said "her mom has no idea how to dress her. The clothes don't fit and they don't match, and they're obviously old. These people are poor. Does she have any idea what she looks like?" They would have been right - Poor, lack of dressing sense, and no clue what I looked like. It was only later looking at photos that I realized what my entire childhood had looked like to the outside world.

Originally Posted by flippyshark

Just posting this makes me sound a lot less fun than I really am - but it's heartfelt.

I don't think you're any less fun - you're just not on board with this new openness. I find myself stuck in the middle, to be honest. I started out with a public Twitter feed, but had to go private. I wanted to keep Facebook open but again, ended up private. Thing is, it depresses me. I want to be a part of the open party. I want my tweets to land on the main page, I want my input to be read by others. I want my photos of famous places referenced by others. I want to be a part of the global conversation. Every time I hear about some new crowdsourced capability of the internet I am bummed that I really can't be a part of it.

But I really can't be, because I work for the city. There's a topic for my next story - the growing schism between those that are open and those that can't be.

Originally Posted by flippyshark

On quite another hand, I would kind of enjoy it if we got back to elegant day to day fashion. (And this coming from an inveterate lazy dresser.) Specifically, dresses and hats. I'd love to have a gentlemanly hat to respectfully tip to others, and though I strive to be 21st century, I admit that dresses add an alluring femininity that drives me wild. I also like jackets, but I live in Florida, so, no thanks to that.

Dude, you really want women in dresses, but you're not wearing a suit? Pssh. Suits make men look awesome but I know they're hot and heavy, so I'd never require it. Just seeing everyone in nice outfits of any kind that fit and flatter would be a welcome change.

[Strangler Lewis]

I wouldn't mind dressing up for school recitals like the Cleavers did. I'm not sure I could get down with wearing a coat and tie to the ballpark, though.

As for where the ethical bar is set, "because we can" is about the lowest it can go. It's about the level of the constitutional bar where the unacceptable alternative is putting people in jail for their bad behavior. Further, as I think I've said before, the more we embrace the new openness and lack of privacy, the easier it is for courts to approve of all manner of government invasions into our privacy.

As to the new openness, I'm old fashioned. I don't particularly care what "the world" has to say, but I do want my contributions embraced by established institutions such as movie studios and publishing houses. I'm also old enough to remember when folks with cameras at nude beaches were considered, what's the word, assholes, not honored citizens of the global village.

[Prudence]

I draw the line at the impact it has on the individual being mocked. It's one thing to think that someone is ridiculous for whatever reason. It's another to make them aware of how ridiculous you think they are. For me, posting photos on the internet of people you judge to be sub-human for their physical appearance is too close to making them aware of your opinion. Or is the assumption that they're so sub-human they don't have internet access, so they won't be joining in the frivolity?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I think this is where the disagreement lies. To my mind it has always been this way. It's the same to me whether you are at Disneyland, snickered at by a few thousand people in one day or whether you're posted on a blog, snickered at by a few thousand people. Yes, it could go viral and hit the million mark, but dare I say that is still rare enough. I don't see much difference there.

Stand up on a table at Plaza Inn and gather an audience of strangers and start insulting people walking by in the distance. Sure they'll probably be entirely oblivious to what you're doing but you're not doing anything to avoid them hearing of it. That's ok, right?

Like I said, the line in the sand I see is so bright and obvious to me that I can't fathom that you don't see it and I can't figure out how to explain it. And to me it looks like you're saying "it's going to happen anyway so you might as well play along" which I can't agree with.

Regarding making judgmental assumptions about underlying character and value - again, this happens anyway. If people will write it down, people will think it while walking around.

True. I guess I'm just not in the camp that just because it happens in private means it is appropriate for happening in public. And that every though that enters my head is something I'd want the person I'm thinking it of to possibly hear.

The idea that you can think that and not make assumptions about that person seems silly to me.

Of course it is. It is natural. And sharing all of those thoughts in public is, in my view, extremely rude. Both can be true at the same time.