Whatever you do, don't take my finger! - Page 8

Cadaverous Pallor · 10-02-2005, 02:47 PM

I tried reading the site you linked to NA, but I found most of it to be reactionary and misinformed.

The studies they mention have very small test groups. A "survey of 35" or a voluntary survey which only 139 women actually responded to (from here which was referenced on the page NA linked to) is not compelling.

I also tried to read the "Jewish Circumcision" section of this site and thought it was interesting how all religious people pick and choose which part of the old text they want to follow. I do the same thing, as there is plenty in the Torah that I don't believe in, but to claim in the same breath that "Circumcision is not universal among Jews" and "A male born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether he is circumcised or not" is kind of silly. Obviously, the concept of being a "Jew" is up for debate, and stating "facts" like these is odd.

There are plenty of sites out there pro and con, and plenty of studies, pro and con. For instance, here's one that says that circumcision may reduce HIV risk by 70% (not conclusive, other studies underway). There are plenty of studies cited by various "academies" or "family" or "parent" groups for both sides. Some say it actually prevent penile cancer, some say it prevents cervical cancer in women, some say that it really doesn't do either, and from what I've read today it becomes obvious that this has more to do with hygeine. In the end it seems to me that all of it is a wash (get it, wash?) and that it helps/hinders both ways enough that the scientific side doesn't come into play.

I do not believe that it causes more harm than not getting it done, if it's done correctly.

And I further contend, IMHO, that any man who feels like he's missing something because he was circumcised at 8 days probably has the same self-esteem issues as a small breasted woman who gets silicone shoved under her skin. Grass is always greener.

Ghoulish Delight · 10-02-2005, 03:36 PM

A think an important distinction is being missed. A traditional Jewish circumcision performed by a mohel at a bris is NOT the same procedure as a medical cicrumcision performed at a hospital.

Quote:

Unlike the traditional Jewish method, when circumcision is performed by a urologist or other surgeon (as opposed to a mohel) the foreskin is removed by constriction, either with the use of clamps or a synthetic ring. This method works by crushing the skin until it is severed. The nerve endings and the blood vessels are severed in the same manner, causing pain and homeostasis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

Kevy Baby · 10-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

As long as they don't actually DO it themselves. Did you happen to see the most recent episode of the TV show House? All I can say is "OWWWWWWWIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE"!

OMG, we just watched that episode last night. I had to pause Tivo for a while to recover from the shock of it. I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable for quite a while afterwards.

For those who do not watch House (and you should - it's a great show), here is what happened (this is NOT for the squemish - hence the spoiler tags):

Spoiler:

As far as the comparison between declawing and spay/neuter: while any of the procedures are surgery, spaying or neutering is highly beneficial to the cat population at large (by decreasing the SEVERE cat overpopulation issue), whereas declawing is simply for the convenience of the owner.

Kevy Baby · 10-02-2005, 05:22 PM

Let us not forget that some cultures circumsize the girls!
____________________________________________

I was a mohel for a while. It didn't pay well, but the tips were good!

Not Afraid · 10-02-2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Let us not forget that some cultures circumsize the girls!
____________________________________________

I was a mohel for a while. It didn't pay well, but the tips were good!

Correct. And, I think my feelings about that follow in the same lines as male circumcision. Why. Or, why are you still doing it?

Scrooge McSam · 10-02-2005, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

You are working on misinformation about the differences between "female modification" and the Jewish Bris. The female procedure, done by some Islamic cultures, removes the freakin' pleasure centers. The Bris removes a flap of skin unnecessary for sexual pleasure.

Actually, no I'm not.

As to my ill advised rant of yesterday, I wan't even talking about a Bris. I was talking about the radical circumcisions performed in hospitals. Reading back, I understand that I have to take a lot of backlash about that, because I realize I was not NEARLY as specific as I thought I was being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I've witnessed many a Bris. The rabbi (who also always a certified MD) uses a scalpel. No pulling or ripping involved. The exterior flap is removed. And the baby is given a small amount of wine on a cloth to suck on.

And you're right. The Bris has almost none of the characteristics of the surgery I'm talking about. I don't doubt what you've seen, nor do I doubt your ability to comment on that authoritatively. Please afford me that same courtesy.

I'm willing to bet that you have NOT seen a radical hospital circumcision performed. A radical circ is so different from a Bris as to make it difficult to even compare the two. It would be somewhat akin to comparing cutting your fingernail to having your fingernail pulled out by the root. GD has a post upthread making note of the difference in the 2 procedures.

A Bris involves removing the tip end of the prepuce that extends past the end of the glans. The glans is uninjuired in this procedure if done correctly. Yes, there is damage to the body, but not on a scale even approaching the damage caused by a radical circ. A radical circ involves slicing the foreskin lengthwise and tearing it away from the surface of the glans, literally skinning the glans alive.

Radical circumcision as performed in hospitals is very similar to female genital modification. 75% of the erogenous tissue of the penis is removed during a radical circumcision. The same is not true of a Bris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Scrooge, I love ya, please don't insult me.

CP, I want to thank you for addressing this in thread. It's been brought to my attention how my post was received and I appreciate the opportunity to set this right. Editting the original post seemed dishonest, so I'm happy to clear up any misunderstanding this way. I hope this post has done that.

Ghoulish Delight · 10-02-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

As far as the comparison between declawing and spay/neuter: while any of the procedures are surgery, spaying or neutering is highly beneficial to the cat population at large (by decreasing the SEVERE cat overpopulation issue), whereas declawing is simply for the convenience of the owner.

Of ourse, the cat population at large got to that state (over population; bred traits that make bearing litters a health risk) due to human actions.

PanTheMan · 10-02-2005, 10:13 PM

I thought this thread was about cats? It seems to have gone from *****'s to Cocks...lol

Cadaverous Pallor · 10-02-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge McSam

CP, I want to thank you for addressing this in thread. It's been brought to my attention how my post was received and I appreciate the opportunity to set this right. Editting the original post seemed dishonest, so I'm happy to clear up any misunderstanding this way. I hope this post has done that.

No problem. I just didn't want the confusion to continue.

Missed this before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by €

So is beating my dog/cat, which causes pain the same as surgery?

Is allowing my dog/cat to go through the pain of childbirth inhumane?

Perhaps humane/inhumane is something more than just surgery/pain?

You misunderstand my point. My contention is with those that say that one surgery is different from another when it comes to being humane/inhumane, and I take issue with that. I'm not saying that surgery is inhumane - in fact, I said above that I support spaying and neutering.

Simply put:
Bad argument: "Declawing is inhumane because you are putting a creature through pain."
Good argument: "Declawing is inhumane because you are putting a creature through pain only to benefit YOU."

Quote:

Originally Posted by NA

Why. Or, why are you still doing it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

I see it as a connection with my cultural past.
...
I do not believe that it causes more harm than not getting it done, if it's done correctly.

Not Afraid · 10-02-2005, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanTheMan

I thought this thread was about cats? It seems to have gone from *****'s to Cocks...lol

Well, you know....there's only so much you can say about cats.

NOT! (I could talk pets all day long - and in my job, I do!)

10-02-2005, 02:47 PM	#71
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	I tried reading the site you linked to NA, but I found most of it to be reactionary and misinformed. The studies they mention have very small test groups. A "survey of 35" or a voluntary survey which only 139 women actually responded to (from here which was referenced on the page NA linked to) is not compelling. I also tried to read the "Jewish Circumcision" section of this site and thought it was interesting how all religious people pick and choose which part of the old text they want to follow. I do the same thing, as there is plenty in the Torah that I don't believe in, but to claim in the same breath that "Circumcision is not universal among Jews" and "A male born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether he is circumcised or not" is kind of silly. Obviously, the concept of being a "Jew" is up for debate, and stating "facts" like these is odd. There are plenty of sites out there pro and con, and plenty of studies, pro and con. For instance, here's one that says that circumcision may reduce HIV risk by 70% (not conclusive, other studies underway). There are plenty of studies cited by various "academies" or "family" or "parent" groups for both sides. Some say it actually prevent penile cancer, some say it prevents cervical cancer in women, some say that it really doesn't do either, and from what I've read today it becomes obvious that this has more to do with hygeine. In the end it seems to me that all of it is a wash (get it, wash?) and that it helps/hinders both ways enough that the scientific side doesn't come into play. I do not believe that it causes more harm than not getting it done, if it's done correctly. And I further contend, IMHO, that any man who feels like he's missing something because he was circumcised at 8 days probably has the same self-esteem issues as a small breasted woman who gets silicone shoved under her skin. Grass is always greener. __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
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10-02-2005, 05:22 PM	#74
Kevy Baby Chowder Head Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Yes Posts: 18,500	Let us not forget that some cultures circumsize the girls! ____________________________________________ I was a mohel for a while. It didn't pay well, but the tips were good! __________________ The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot verify their validity. - Abraham Lincoln
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10-02-2005, 10:13 PM	#78
PanTheMan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Somewhere between you, and just over there. Posts: 258	I thought this thread was about cats? It seems to have gone from ***'s to Cocks...lol __________________ What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?** ....
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