Home schooling in CA

[BarTopDancer]

Some children will grow up to be artists. What happens to all the children who were unschooled or homeschooled with a focus on art when they can't make a living that way? And they can't get into college because they don't have the knowledge or skills to pass the tests to get in? And they can't get a job that pays a living wage because they don't have a degree.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer

Some children will grow up to be artists. What happens to all the children who were unschooled with a focus on art when they can't make a living that way? And they can't get into college because they don't have the knowledge or skills to pass the tests to get in? And they can't get a job that pays a living wage because they don't have a degree.

This is just such an absurd hypothetical that I can't even properly respond. Of the unschooled adults I know, one is a writer, one is a biologist, and one is a computer programmer. I don't even think you can unschool with a focus on art. You unschool with a focus on life. Here in AZ it's pretty impossible not to get into college. Homeschoolers can start at 14 and they teach very basic classes for people that don't score well. I don't know anyone that couldn't get into college as a result of homeschooling (or unschooling).

Unschooling is not about deliberately not learning. It's about finding opportunities to incorporate learning into everyday life. Most of the unschoolers I know seem to be advanced in at least one subject. I say seem to be because it's not like we're measuring our kids all the time. The most important thing is that they are learning to use their brain very effectively, or rather not being taught to shut if down and swallow whatever learning pill a school wants them to, making your scenario above highly unlikely.

[katiesue]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Unschooling is not about deliberately not learning. It's about finding opportunities to incorporate learning into everyday life. Most of the unschoolers I know seem to be advanced in at least one subject.

But you can do this with traditional schooling as well. Maddy did a report on Hearst Castle - so we went there. We do outside things that reinforce or enrich things she's learned at school all the time.

I'd say most kids are more advanced in one subject than in others. No matter how they're schooled.

[tracilicious]

Sorry, GD, after I posted that I read your comment about not objecting to homeschooling kids (see where my "critical thinking skills" got me?! lol). Though it does sound like you are pro-public schools from the rest of your posts.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Sorry, GD, after I posted that I read your comment about not objecting to homeschooling kids (see where my "critical thinking skills" got me?! lol). Though it does sound like you are pro-public schools from the rest of your posts.

Yes, I am pro public schools. That doesn't mean I want kids who will benefit more from homeschool than public school to be forced in to public school. I just think that public schools and public school teachers take a lot of sh*t for things that aren't (and shouldn't be) within their control, nor do I think that the issues that most kids have in public school can be solved by homeschooling.

I would never argue that the public school system is not flawed. It is. But there's a massive disconnect between what the public thinks is flawed vs. what is actually flawed. So when I see people bad mouthing the system for things it was never designed to do, yes I get defensive.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

That doesn't mean I want kids who will benefit more from homeschool than public school to be forced in to public school.

Let me clarify that:

I don't care if someone chooses homeschooling over public schooling, whether it ends up benefiting them more or not. My whole point is that no matter what, it comes down to how much the student and parent want to get out of the situation. Except for some outlying cases where public school just is not right for an individual student, if the parent and student work to get an excellent education out of public school, it can be done. If a parent and student work to get an excellent education out of homeschooling, it can be done. But not every responsible parent has the inclination or ability to be both parent and teacher (and yes, I will continue to assert that those are two different skills), so public school provides a valuable service to those that can't...as long as the parent remains invested in their child's education (a prerequisite for success in ALL schooling options).

The only point of contention I have is lack of oversight and accountability in homeschooling. And "well, public school is screwed up" is not an argument against that. Those are independent issues that both need solving.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

But not every responsible parent has the inclination or ability to be both parent and teacher (and yes, I will continue to assert that those are two different skills).....

I think you can be a good teacher without being a parent, but every good parent is a teacher. You must have teaching skills to be a good parent. This does not mean I would be good in charge of a classroom setting (though I am in a gym with a group of basketball players).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think you can be a good teacher without being a parent, but every good parent is a teacher. You must have teaching skills to be a good parent. This does not mean I would be good in charge of a classroom setting (though I am in a gym with a group of basketball players).

To some degree, I agree. But with any skill, there is a difference between using one's naturally ability vs. refining that ability through training. To use a hokey contextual analogy, it's one thing to find a kid who has natural basketball skills and throw him on the court. It's another to have that kid coached in the finer points of the game. Most parents may be naturally good at teaching their kids some level of knowledge, but a good (and I stress good) teacher has the tools to do more.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think you can be a good teacher without being a parent, but every good parent is a teacher.

I'm going to call bull**** on that one unless teacher is used only in the broadest sense of the word.

No matter how well intentioned, my mom would not have been able to teach me algebra or the fundamentals of chemistry.

Sure, she could have read the book the night before I did but if pressed she could only parrot the book back to me, which isn't much help if I'm already not getting it.

There is no magic that happens when a penis is put in a vagina that gives a person instructional skill.

But I'll agree, that a good teacher will be a good teacher whether it is in a classroom or not. However, if a parent is not a good teacher there really won't be any easy means of detection until after much damage is done. Yes, this can happen in schools as well, but the safeguards for at least detecting failure (if not fixing it) are greater.

I'm sure my sampling is skewed but in my experience most home schooled children were not home schooled because the parents were confident that they could better teach a curriculum than the school district but rather because they wanted to "protect" their children from perceived evils in what the schools will try to teach them.

It is one thing to reject the truth of evolution because you've been exposed to it and another completely to reject it simply because it has never been to you or taught to you as a materialist conspiracy. I remember my first week of college, in a geology 100 seminar a home-schooled student who interrupted class absolutely enraged and flabbergasted that the professor was teaching the class on the assumption that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. She stood up in front of 500 students and said this. She was a perfectly well educated home schooled kid, she'd just never actually been exposed to the ideas that her parents thought irreligious.


And that, for me, is the biggest failing of most home schooling. Not lack of socialization. Not failure to teach the basic educational facts. But rather that there is a single, overly emotionally involved person making the decisions about what facts the child will even be exposed to and capable of making sure that nothing "horrible" sneaks in: whether that be evolution, religion, capitalism, competitiveness, the homosexual agenda, etc.

Also, the inclinations of the parents can't help but drive things in major and minor ways. There's a reason that as you advance academically you move from having a single teacher all day to have separate teachers for separate subjects. There are certainly drawbacks to this but one of the great advantages, hopefully, is that for each subject you are presented with a person passionate about that subject who interacts with it on a level of pleasure rather than just necessity. If a parent loves American history but isn't much into meteorology, sure they can teach both subjects but they can't convey passion about them both at the macro level and at the subtle level will tend to emphasize one over the other. And just like it is oh so convenient for the stage dad that his little 5 year just happens to love the pageant circuit it will be an equally wonderful coincidence that his 10 year does better in American history than meteorology.

I'm not saying any of the homeschooling parents here are guilty of these sins. I've never met (at least not to sufficient degree) any of them to have an opinion. And I've known fabulous home schooling parents and home schooled kids but even the best of them have to work very hard to overcome these challenges. And worst, many of the parents don't want to overcome them because these are the very benefits they see in homeschooling: not "I can teach this child better" but "I can make sure this child grows up thinking like me."

No, public schools are not a panacea, they have huge problems. And a certain number of children will fail regardless of what system they are in while some will fail in one but not the other. But while I would be very hesitant in moving towards strong regulation of home schooling I remain extremely bothered by the "defensive" rather than "proactive" stance of a large part of the homeschooling movement.

[MouseWife]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think you can be a good teacher without being a parent, but every good parent is a teacher.

I actually love this. This is how I feel, how I've treated being a parent. The time we spend with our children is always an opportunity for a lesson.

I've always taught at home; my children didn't go to pre-school but they were prepared for kindergarten. Two of my children were first to read in their classes. I saw every day as an opportunity to learn.

But, as school teachers, we all make mistakes. My experience is that most teachers don't admit to theirs.

wendybeth~oh gawd, yes, I really had it with those parents. Egads, and my time was before Starbucks, I really feel for those now!!!!

Alex~you are right, not every parent homeschools because they are not happy with the school. A friend of mine pulled all of her kids out because they did not like the direction the school was going, just as you said, about evolution, the evils, etc. I had the same concerns as you, that the kids would grow up only knowing their parents opinions. A pretty narrow world.

I was worried about that, I have never forced my beliefs on my children. Because of that, my kids are all over the place {meaning, they have varied interests, beliefs, their own, not mine}. But, I do respect their views.

Oh, and our schools, if they have labs at all, are very limited.