The Gay Thread

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Alex

The key fact being that I'm right and you're wrong. As long as we can agree on that it'll all be good.

Please tell me that that was an attempt at humor.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Here's my perspective:

I can't find details, but I'm pretty sure at least one of the recent gay bullying related suicides was by a kid who was not gay, but was subjected to "your gay!" bullsh*t because he fit some gay stereotype or another.

Around these parts I may be butch-by-comparison. But (prepare for the shock of a lfetime), in average American circles I am not the paradigm of hetero-male-machismo. And, for my entire life, because I have the audacity to not spend 100% of my time thinking and talking about tits and pro wrestling, I've had the "gay" label attached to me. Hell, my college roommate who walked in on me and CP while "indisposed" and caught me snooping through his considerable collection of hetero porn, STILL was apparently speculating to everyone else in the dorm that I was gay. Because...I don't know. My voice isn't deep enough? I don't know what to do with my hands while talking? I'm not threatened to spend time with other males who aren't macho enough? Who know, and who gives a sh*t?

So yeah, I'm a little touchy when it comes to the subject of "gaydar" and swishiness.

I'll let y'all fight over whether it fits the dictionary definition of hypocrisy to be passing around "It Gets Better" videos while out of the other side of your mouth you're merrily reinforcing that it's okay to label people based on gay stereotypes. Whatever you want to call it, I don't like it and I'm going to call you on it every time.

I see where you are coming from, but I still have to disagree with you. It's much more than labeling someone based on stereotypes. And unless you have lived the life of a gay person, it's really not something you can truly grasp. While you have been mistaken for gay, you are a heterosexual male. You simply do not have the life experiences we do, and you can't see the world through the lens of ours. This is true of any minority; there are points of view you just can't comprehend unless you belong to that group.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Please tell me that that was an attempt at humor.

Yes, but with the side benefit of being wrapped around truth. I'm right, you're wrong. If that weren't the case I'd be arguing your side.

there are points of view you just can't comprehend unless you belong to that group.

I can accept that (though I didn't realize that gays had a single monolithic life experience that taught them all the exact same things). I don't accept that it extends to the idea that you can tell with precision worthy of treating as fact--through a TV screen, no less--who is gay.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Alex

Yes, but with the side benefit of being wrapped around truth. I'm right, you're wrong. If that weren't the case I'd be arguing your side.

Well... Whatever makes you happy.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Well... Whatever makes you happy.

Exactly, next time if you just remember that if you disagree with me then you are wrong, it will save you a lot of time and effort.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I see where you are coming from, but I still have to disagree with you. It's much more than labeling someone based on stereotypes. And unless you have lived the life of a gay person, it's really not something you can truly grasp. While you have been mistaken for gay, you are a heterosexual male. You simply do not have the life experiences we do, and you can't see the world through the lens of ours. This is true of any minority; there are points of view you just can't comprehend unless you belong to that group.

You're right...no more than YOU can possibly comprehend what it's like to continually through adolescence have your sexuality wrongly assailed.

I'm Jewish, trust me, I'm well versed in what it's like to be the target of bigotry.

Go ahead and tell Billy Lucas's parents (thanks GC) that, really, Billy shouldn't have been whining, he had no idea what REAL persecution is.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Go ahead and tell Billy Lucas's parents (thanks GC) that, really, Billy shouldn't have been whining, he had no idea what REAL persecution is.

Where did that come from?! That has nothing to do with what I said.

[Chernabog]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

You're right...no more than YOU can possibly comprehend what it's like to continually through adolescence have your sexuality wrongly assailed.

I'm Jewish, trust me, I'm well versed in what it's like to be the target of bigotry.

Go ahead and tell Billy Lucas's parents (thanks GC) that, really, Billy shouldn't have been whining, he had no idea what REAL persecution is.

Are you confusing being BULLIED for being gay versus just "being gay"? I mean, it's always slightly awkward when clients ask me if I'm married (granted, they're usually the elderly ones with no gaydar), but I just say no and shrug it off. I'm pretty confident in my sexuality so who gives a flying poobah. Plus, they aren't bullying me about it.

I know swishy men who are straight but they're confident in their sexuality so it doesn't bug them what other people think.

Unfortunately, teens aren't confident about much of anything (hence the "it gets better" campaign). Did Billy Lucas kill himself because he was perceived as gay, or because he was a) bullied because of that perception and/or b) self-loathing because of all the religious hatred? If there's no problem with being gay, who cares how you are perceived? Is it the difference between being a little annoyed and being "assailed" due to perceived sexuality?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Chernabog

Are you confusing being BULLIED for being gay versus just "being gay"? I mean, it's always slightly awkward when clients ask me if I'm married (granted, they're usually the elderly ones with no gaydar), but I just say no and shrug it off. I'm pretty confident in my sexuality so who gives a flying poobah. Plus, they aren't bullying me about it.

I was a nerd, geek, and slightly effeminate. Trust me, it was bullying. I was fortunate that I never had to deal with anyone who was a seriously sociopathic bully, but yes, my entire school existence was underscored by regular low-grade bullying, continually being derided for appearing "faggy" being among the many ugly things thrown my way.

I know swishy men who are straight but they're confident in their sexuality so it doesn't bug them what other people think.

I was a well adjusted kid with and relatively secure. I actually still remember clearly the day it struck me, "Wait a minute, how is it that you calling me gay is supposed to be an insult? If it's true, then you're just calling me what I am, so whatever. If it's not true, then I know it's not true, so who gives a crap?"

But you know what? Day in, day out knowing that, no matter what, there are people who are simply going to refuse to believe what you know to be true about your own identity sucks. It wears you down. And if JW is going to play the "you're not in my shoes card" then this is where I'm playing it. I don't care how secure in your sexuality (or any aspect of your personality) you are, years of being challenged on it is something I would wish on no one.

I'm not equating being misidentified as gay with actual homophobic hatred aimed at homosexuals. But arguing about that just brings to mind the people who dismiss the movement for gay rights with, "Get over it, you're not treated as badly as the slaves were." Again, tell Billy Lucas's parents that it's just "a little annoying".

Obviously the people who are angry at Shervill for what he said and are decrying him as a "closet case" are not doing so in the same spirit as kids who call slightly mincing boys "fags". But while the precise spirit is different, there is still an undercurrent of judgment and derision. "Closet case" is hardly a term of endearment. No, you're not saying he's bad or more worthy of ridicule for being gay. But you ARE saying he's bad or more worthy of ridicule for hiding the "fact" that he's gay. And it strikes me as hypocritical to simultaneously see all of the anti gay-bullying fervor combined with what I see as a mirror image use of sexuality and personal identity to shame someone.

Which is all far more in depth than this all deserves, and more thought I cared to apply to the a*hole, but the questions were posed.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I can't find details, but I'm pretty sure at least one of the recent gay bullying related suicides was by a kid who was not gay..

Billy Lucas

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

But (prepare for the shock of a lfetime), in average American circles I am not the paradigm of hetero-male-machismo.

Well, you even had a reputation around here for being the gayest straight man. And I think a lot of gay guys I knew thought you were gay through wishful thinking.


I don't mind you calling us on it. It strict terms, you are absolutely correct. It's more likely US who are being hypocritical when we 'ping' that Shirvell is gay because of how he comes off. And likely we all know that, but we also like to be silly and just a little bit bitchy.

More seriously, most gays are also a bit sensitized to those railing against homosexuality the loudest being despicable closet cases, and we enjoy seeing that revealed by whatever means. Not only for the sheer joy of it - but because the more that tendency comes to light, the more the loud-mouthiest gay haters who aren't gay might shut up for fear of seeming absolutely gay.