On Psalm 109 and Faith - Page 9

scaeagles · 12-01-2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

That's not really the question I asked.

The question I asked is, if you it were to be proven satisfactorily to you that god does not exist, would your behavior, and your desire to do be what you consider to be a "good" person, change at all?

And what I alluded to was the concept of "burden of proof". But it's a distraction from the question I originally posed and find more interesting, so I don't want to get into it now. The question I'm interested in is if your sense of morality and of right vs. wrong, is contingent on your belief in god, or if it would remain in tact without it.

Sorry about that. That's what I get for trying to catch up on a thread too quickly.

I don't imagine my behavior would change, nor would my concept of what is right and wrong. I do suppose certain of my social viewpoints might be altered a bit, but in terms of my personal moral code, I don't think it would. I think the concepts of what is good in Christianity are good in general. Love your neighbor. Visit the sick (I suck at that one...hate being around sick people). Feed the hungry. etc, etc. etc.

Alex · 11-30-2009, 03:04 PM

If it helps to imagine, rather than proof god doesn't exist (and consider my version an add-on to GD's so I don't undercut him), how about if you received proof that god exists but you were completely wrong about its fundamental nature.

Say, it shows up, offers convincing evidence of who it is but says "Yes, I invented the universe but I moved on to other projects immediately afterward. There is no afterlife and all religions founded on earth have been entirely human constructions. Nothing you all do matters in the slightest to me, I was just cleaning a closet and stumbled across this old project so I thought I'd drop in. Boy did evolution go in a completely different direction than I expected. Anyway, ta ta for now, might stop by again some day."

What does that do to your moral behavior.

Strangler Lewis · 11-30-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

That's not really the question I asked.

The question I asked is, if you it were to be proven satisfactorily to you that god does not exist, would your behavior, and your desire to do be what you consider to be a "good" person, change at all?

And what I alluded to was the concept of "burden of proof". But it's a distraction from the question I originally posed and find more interesting, so I don't want to get into it now. The question I'm interested in is if your sense of morality and of right vs. wrong, is contingent on your belief in god, or if it would remain in tact without it.

You keep opening the door.

Query, though. Which is worse? Adhering to a moral code that is not necessarily self-evident out of a belief that it was commanded by a God that you believe to exist, or deriving a sense of community by hopping on one foot at prescribed times of the day and pretending that doing so was commanded by a God in which you don't believe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

If it helps to imagine, rather than proof god doesn't exist (and consider my version an add-on to GD's so I don't undercut him), how about if you received proof that god exists but you were completely wrong about its fundamental nature.

Say, it shows up, offers convincing evidence of who it is but says "Yes, I invented the universe but I moved on to other projects immediately afterward. There is no afterlife and all religions founded on earth have been entirely human constructions. Nothing you all do matters in the slightest to me, I was just cleaning a closet and stumbled across this old project so I thought I'd drop in. Boy did evolution go in a completely different direction than I expected. Anyway, ta ta for now, might stop by again some day."

What does that do to your moral behavior.

I believe your premise would most likely be dismissed as a temptation.

Ghoulish Delight · 11-30-2009, 08:55 PM

Where did I ever say I'm pretending that doing so was commanded by God?

Strangler Lewis · 11-30-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Where did I ever say I'm pretending that doing so was commanded by God?

You say it with every Baruch atah that you don't really mean.

Morrigoon · 11-30-2009, 09:24 PM

GD to answer your re-posed question:

My sense of right and wrong is occasionally in conflict with my religious beliefs, or rather, cause me to question whether my understanding of right and wrong is off, or whether the world is wrong about the nature and desires of God. In the end, I go with my conscience, and hope that if I'm wrong I will be forgiven.

alphabassettgrrl · 11-30-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

My sense of right and wrong is occasionally in conflict with my religious beliefs, or rather, cause me to question whether my understanding of right and wrong is off, or whether the world is wrong about the nature and desires of God. In the end, I go with my conscience, and hope that if I'm wrong I will be forgiven.

I've thought for a long time that the world is wrong about religion/god/gods. I continue to be amazed at some of the things people believe.

Ghoulish Delight · 11-30-2009, 09:49 PM

Oh, you mean pretending for other people. In that case, I personally consider neither a good option, but yes I consider the former worse because the latter does not require accepting magic as truth. For the most part, I do not lie about the reasons I continue to take part in Jewish rituals. I'm fairly open with (or at least I would be if they asked) most of my family that I do so simply for tradition's sake rather than belief. And the negative reaction I'd anticipate would be purely because of the break in tradition and the fear that it would distance them from their grandchild, not because of some concern for my eternal soul.

With the exception of a select few for whom that truth would cause more family strife than it's worth. In that sense, yes there is pretense there. But the harm that would cause by being honest is not worth it to me.

Sure, said rituals do involve voicing certain supernatural beliefs. But I don't consider taking part in that "pretending to believe in god" any more than I consider reading The Giving Tree "pretending to believe that trees have human-like emotions." It's just a story framework to teach and reinforce certain lessons. And as soon as my child is old enough to understand that, that's what they'll learn.

lashbear · 11-30-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

For the most part, I do not lie about the reasons I continue to take part in Jewish rituals. I'm fairly open with (or at least I would be if they asked) most of my family that I do so simply for tradition's sake rather than belief.

Or when requested by friends, ie: eating Gefilte Fish.

well, it was almost a ritual....

Strangler Lewis · 11-30-2009, 10:05 PM

All right, I'm back. Had to go say the Lord's prayer with the family at tuck-in time.

Where were we?

11-30-2009, 03:04 PM	#2
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	If it helps to imagine, rather than proof god doesn't exist (and consider my version an add-on to GD's so I don't undercut him), how about if you received proof that god exists but you were completely wrong about its fundamental nature. Say, it shows up, offers convincing evidence of who it is but says "Yes, I invented the universe but I moved on to other projects immediately afterward. There is no afterlife and all religions founded on earth have been entirely human constructions. Nothing you all do matters in the slightest to me, I was just cleaning a closet and stumbled across this old project so I thought I'd drop in. Boy did evolution go in a completely different direction than I expected. Anyway, ta ta for now, might stop by again some day." What does that do to your moral behavior.
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11-30-2009, 08:55 PM	#4
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Where did I ever say I'm pretending that doing so was commanded by God? __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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11-30-2009, 09:24 PM	#6
Morrigoon I throw stones at houses Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Location: Location Posts: 9,534	GD to answer your re-posed question: My sense of right and wrong is occasionally in conflict with my religious beliefs, or rather, cause me to question whether my understanding of right and wrong is off, or whether the world is wrong about the nature and desires of God. In the end, I go with my conscience, and hope that if I'm wrong I will be forgiven. __________________ http://bash.org/?top "It is useless for sheep to pass a resolution in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion." -- William Randolph Inge
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11-30-2009, 09:49 PM	#8
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Oh, you mean pretending for other people. In that case, I personally consider neither a good option, but yes I consider the former worse because the latter does not require accepting magic as truth. For the most part, I do not lie about the reasons I continue to take part in Jewish rituals. I'm fairly open with (or at least I would be if they asked) most of my family that I do so simply for tradition's sake rather than belief. And the negative reaction I'd anticipate would be purely because of the break in tradition and the fear that it would distance them from their grandchild, not because of some concern for my eternal soul. With the exception of a select few for whom that truth would cause more family strife than it's worth. In that sense, yes there is pretense there. But the harm that would cause by being honest is not worth it to me. Sure, said rituals do involve voicing certain supernatural beliefs. But I don't consider taking part in that "pretending to believe in god" any more than I consider reading The Giving Tree "pretending to believe that trees have human-like emotions." It's just a story framework to teach and reinforce certain lessons. And as soon as my child is old enough to understand that, that's what they'll learn. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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11-30-2009, 10:05 PM	#10
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	All right, I'm back. Had to go say the Lord's prayer with the family at tuck-in time. Where were we? __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
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