Musings on Nazism, God, and the Pope

[€uroMeinke]

I don’t want to derail the other pope thread, so I thought maybe I’d take this discussion here. And I’m not sure where I want to go with this, other than there is part that hits me personally having German ancestry and the odd set of circumstances of the guilt or shame inherited from that ancestry.

I find this fascinating because the Pope at 78 is one year older than my mother, and one year younger than my father would have been. Like him, they grew up in Nazi Germany and parts of his story resonate with the stories told by my parents.

My mother was also a member of the Hitler Youth, not because of any deep held political or racial convictions, but rather it was the thing to do at the time – the girl scouts of its day. Though she did receive the eugenic messages that it was okay for her to have a child with a blond haired blue eyed guy because the state would take care of her baby; she wasn’t really of the age to put that into practice. Most of her stories of that time are more about the horrors of war, friends being evicted, napalmed, shot, raped, and maimed. By the time the war ended, she had witnessed enough atrocities by all parties to realize there were few evils not committed under the blessings of religion, patriotism, or nationalism.

My Father’s story also follows the Pope – a bit. I believe at 16 my father was sent abroad to Poland where he dug trenches – where he accidentally exhumed mass graves from previous pogroms. Ultimately, he “joined” the Navy – but he was outspoken in his disdain for the Nazi party and found himself, after his second (or third) desertion, an enemy of the fatherland. Ironically, it was his father (my Grandfather) who took him in at gunpoint. Fortunately, this happened near enough to the war’s end that the execution of Russian POWs (then in abundance) took priority, over the execution or traitors.

So from my father’s story I know resistance was possible, but certainly had its consequences. I’m not sure I’d blame anyone for not willing to risk their lives in the foolhardy manner that my father did. Interestingly enough, I think it was this wartime experience that galvanized my parents’ atheism, for all the evil done in the name of god, and horror God presumably allowed. Yet in this same set of circumstances, the Pope may have found his faith, and trust in God.

[scaeagles]

It is certainly interesting how similar circumstances turn people in opposite directions. Interesting post. Sounds as if your parents had their hands full at an early age.

[Ghoulish Delight]

It's a difficult, complicated mess to be sure. And I certainly don't fault him as a human being (or, more accurately, don't have enough information either way to fault him) for taking what was probably the safest route at the time, or possibly simply not having the necessary perspective to truly understand why what he was doing might be considered so wrong. However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope. Especially in light of his continued rhetoric that shows him to be a religious isolationist with contempt for other beliefs.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I've already mused about this enough elsewhere, but I enjoyed reading the post, C. Thanks.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

It's a difficult, complicated mess to be sure. And I certainly don't fault him as a human being (or, more accurately, don't have enough information either way to fault him) for taking what was probably the safest route at the time, or possibly simply not having the necessary perspective to truly understand why what he was doing might be considered so wrong. However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope. Especially in light of his continued rhetoric that shows him to be a religious isolationist with contempt for other beliefs.

And I pretty much wish this is how I'd expressed myself elsewhere. "excusable in my book for the common man, is...unsettling when it's in the past of a pope." Yes, that pretty much sums up my confused feelings on the subject quite nicely.

I also try not to be judgmental of others forced to make these kinds of awful decisions because I seriously doubt I’m the kind of person who would die in defense of my own principles. When it comes to life, I’m a greedy bastard. I live to live another day. I’m also, most likely, a coward, and I doubt I’d risk my life refusing to support an atrocity, or sacrifice my own life to save someone else’s. I’d like to feel differently about myself, and maybe I’d act differently than I imagine I would. Whatever. Being selfish about my own life span doesn’t make me a terrible person, I don’t think. But I think it should disqualify me from certain positions in this life.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Thanks for the input and the background. It's good to hear your perspective.

I don't put it past anyone in the human race to do what they need to in order to survive. I don't blame him for not trying harder to stand up against the party. But I really have to agree with Greg. Friends, priests, doctors who faced such a choice and chose to join up? Hey, we're all human. This guy's the pope.

Sure, sure. Augustine was a rabble-rouser and then became a saint. Everyone is human. I wish that the final word on doctrine didn't lay with a human, though. Maybe that's my central concern with the mess?

I actually think my central concern isn't with his time in the German services, though. It's the things he's said recently that are so terribly disconcerting.

[Name]

Doesn't he have the direct line to God now, so any doctrinal descisions he makes must be coming straight from God.......after all, he was chosen by God with the mouths(votes) of the cardinals that were guided by God.

I hope the sarcasm is apparent enough in this post, but if not, consider this the disclaimer.

[€uroMeinke]

I actually think my central concern isn't with his time in the German services, though. It's the things he's said recently that are so terribly disconcerting.

In some ways it's the combination of the two that are unsettling. It seems the Catholic church took it's time to deal with it's own colaboration with the Nazis that this selection sort of smacks a bit of arrogance. Likewise some of the positions the church has taken about sexually abusive priests. It doesn't serve their image well - at least here in the states.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope.

GD, do you mind if I respond to someone on my LJ quoting this remark? It gets my point across better than I'll be able to.

[Ghoulish Delight]

GD, do you mind if I respond to someone on my LJ quoting this remark? It gets my point across better than I'll be able to.Be my guest.

[Prudence]

Sometimes I worry that I'm not paying enough attention to various attrocities in the world right now and that future generations will look back at me and wonder, bewildered, "Why didn't you *DO* something"?

But this country isn't immune to hateful beliefs. Just the other week I was reading some property-rights cases from the not-too-distant past that involved Japanese immigrants. And the language used by presumeably learned, rational human beings was horrifying. Language from appointed or elected officials saying things that don't even logically make sense. And yet it was "common knowledge." Maybe I'm impossibly naive, but I can't even comprehend that people look at fellow human beings and think those things, let alone write them down for posterity. But they did, and some certainly still do.

Granted, as far as I know my next door neighbors aren't being rounded up in the night and shipped off to crematoriums. But all over the globe are pockets of people who hold such contempt for their neighbors that they think nothing of exterminating the "others" to cleanse their little corner of existence. And what have we managed to do about it? We, the advanced, industrialized, Christian west have made colonies out those areas likely to provide us with the most benefit and largely ignored the rest. It's bad enough that history repeats itself in those euphamistically labelled "hot spots," but isn't it worse that those who should know better do nothing more than cluck their tongues and "tsk, tsk"?

Sometimes I imagine myself going to those global trouble zones, assembling those involved, and talking some sense into them -- because surely if they stopped to consider things they wouldn't do what they do.

I know it's not that easy, but still, I feel like I should do something. But I don't know what. Oh sure, I can donate money and warm blankets. But what can I actually do? I sit on my ass and do nothing. That's what I do. I try to tell myself that gee, I helped that one person -- but meanwhile people, real people, real live people that are just as entitled to life as I am, die brutal and anonymous deaths.

And somewhere in my soul is the sickening thought that if I lived in Nazi Germany, I wouldn't have resisted either. Because I don't want to be killed. Because I love my family. Because I think that if I don't think about what's actually happening maybe it will all go away and maybe it's not as bad as it seems and maybe if I just go with the flow for one more day things will change tomorrow. And a dozen other justifications that are just as meaningless.

And I hate that part of myself, and I hate knowing that myself exists, and I hate that saying that here means that now you all know that about me and how could it not change what you think of me?

And I hate that some day I'm going to look into a pair of big blue eyes filled with hurt as they ask me, "Grandma, why didn't you do something?"

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

And I hate that part of myself, and I hate knowing that myself exists, and I hate that saying that here means that now you all know that about me and how could it not change what you think of me?

I won't hate you if you won't hate me for essentially voicing the same thought in this thread.

And I hate that some day I'm going to look into a pair of big blue eyes filled with hurt as they ask me, "Grandma, why didn't you do something?"

Well, look on the brightside, according to recent environmental reports, we've used up 2/3 of the world's natural resources. We could possibly use up the remaining 1/3 before your grandchild has a chance to be born. So you might not have to worry about being asked such questions.

People let horrible things happen by turning away from them. Or like Milgram's experiments proved, human beings often yield to authority figures. I'm not sure what the answer is. Love and be loved. Live and let live. Easy to write, and maybe even easy enough within your own social circles, but how does one right wrongs happening across the globe? How does one help out the homeless living on the streets of Downtown Los Angeles? I barely have enough energy to properly take care of my own family and friends. Sometimes you cannot do no harm by doing nothing, sometimes maybe nothing is the only choice we have.

All I can say with any certainty is that I'm glad there are far better people out there than me, and for the sake of contrast (to make myself feel a bit better) there's also far worse.

[Sheila]

I think that almost anyone elected as Pope today from would have national "baggage" as part of his past.

I don't know much about the supposed candidate cardinal from Africa. What if he came from a country like Rwanda or like country where horrible genocide has (and still is) occurring? Would we be so judgmental as we are being of Ratzinger? I'm only saying this in regards to Ratzinger's background -- not on his history as a leader in the Catholic church.

And I know I've heard several newscasters opine that an American would not be elected Pope because of the Vatican's desire to distance themselves from the world's largest super-power (and the implicit message that America is highly disapproved of by the rest of the world for its waging of war in Iraq).

I am definitely a lapsed Christian but it's one of the big teachings of Christianity that anyone can see the light and realize the errors of his ways, so I'm willing to give Ratzinger a superficial pass in that respect. However, the rumors that he wants to go back in time to a pre-Vatican II theology where women were only allowed to iron the church vestments has me very uneasy.

Maybe it's my "anti-faith filibustering Democratic ways" showing ;), but the U.S. has been so big on women's rights with George W. freeing the Afghanistan women from virtual slavery, but then GW turns around and praises Ratzinger? I don't know what to think!

Sorry, this is very rambling, but it's hard to put in words what I'm feeling and thinking right now about this. I think I need to ponder this some more....

[mousepod]

Thanks, €, for starting this thread. I admire your honesty for sharing your parents' story. I'm sure that as a 13 or 14 year old, joining Hitler Youth didn't have the stigma that it might for a adult or for a non-Aryan. But what disgusts me about Ratzinger's story is where he went from there. A seminarian guarding Jewish slaves in the 20th century at gunpoint (did the Jews know that his gun wasn't loaded?) is despicable.

I'm heartened that there are so many people on the board who have the ability to have an honest soul-searching when faced with these types of issues. On a purely hypothetical level, I'm sure I can too.

However, as a descendant of the Eastern European Jews that were the target of the Nazis, the Polish, the Russians and the Catholic Church, I have a more visceral reaction to the ascendancy of a guy like Ratzinger.

**** Ratzinger. **** Benedict XVI. **** the Pope.

(I know that my words will be auto-censored, but it felt really good to type them.)

[€uroMeinke]

However, as a descendant of the Eastern European Jews that were the target of the Nazis, the Polish, the Russians and the Catholic Church, I have a more visceral reaction to the ascendancy of a guy like Ratzinger.


Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, as a non-Catholic I feel odd commenting on such things, but in a way it's hard for me to not take this personally - like the guy's going to be coming after me.

[Not Afraid]

Having heard the stories of the atrocities my In-Laws experienced and seen how it shaped their own attitudes and philosophies I find it inexcusable that Ratzinger, having had similar experiences, still has an attitude of extreme intolerance. One would think that firsthand experience of the horrors caused by intolerance would make a person see that acceptance and tolerance of other cultures, religions, beliefs, and physical attributes is supremely valuable and essential in preventing a repeat of former world atrocities. That he is now the Pope is incredibly frightening.

[€uroMeinke]

This may be a result of ignorance on my part - but knowing his experiences, and the age at which he experienced them, must have had a profound effect on him. Yet, I hear nothing of the shame or guilt that has come out of post WWII German culture. Even the comments of his gun not being loaded strike me the same way as Bill Clinton's "But I didn't inhale." Knowing my family's experience with the era, his perceived silence (perhaps he's commented extensively elsewhere) is diconcerting to me.

[Prudence]

This may be a result of ignorance on my part - but knowing his experiences, and the age at which he experienced them, must have had a profound effect on him. Yet, I hear nothing of the shame or guilt that has come out of post WWII German culture. Even the comments of his gun not being loaded strike me the same way as Bill Clinton's "But I didn't inhale." Knowing my family's experience with the era, his perceived silence (perhaps he's commented extensively elsewhere) is diconcerting to me.


I've been pondering on this since yesterday afternoon and I'm currently with € on this one. Hell, just posting my own sins against humanity up there left me facing my own oppressive guilt and I'm not particularly religious. When I think of all the times I could have helped others and didn't...I can't even describe the shame I feel. I'm going to have to figure out a way to rebottle that feeling or I'm not going to get anything done today. I want to give Pope B the benefit of the doubt and imagine that maybe he, too, finds his own behaviour so reprehensible that he has to hide it from himself in order to function. But I'll never know if that's true or if he really is evil. My perception is that this is particularly troublesome when compared to JPII's youth and professional outreach.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, as a non-Catholic I feel odd commenting on such things, but in a way it's hard for me to not take this personally - like the guy's going to be coming after me.

Ehh, it might not be that different if you're Catholic. This morning my mother asked me to write my questions and concerns in a letter to the new pope. I said there wasn't a faster way to be excommunicated.