Musings on Nazism, God, and the Pope

[€uroMeinke]

I don’t want to derail the other pope thread, so I thought maybe I’d take this discussion here. And I’m not sure where I want to go with this, other than there is part that hits me personally having German ancestry and the odd set of circumstances of the guilt or shame inherited from that ancestry.

I find this fascinating because the Pope at 78 is one year older than my mother, and one year younger than my father would have been. Like him, they grew up in Nazi Germany and parts of his story resonate with the stories told by my parents.

My mother was also a member of the Hitler Youth, not because of any deep held political or racial convictions, but rather it was the thing to do at the time – the girl scouts of its day. Though she did receive the eugenic messages that it was okay for her to have a child with a blond haired blue eyed guy because the state would take care of her baby; she wasn’t really of the age to put that into practice. Most of her stories of that time are more about the horrors of war, friends being evicted, napalmed, shot, raped, and maimed. By the time the war ended, she had witnessed enough atrocities by all parties to realize there were few evils not committed under the blessings of religion, patriotism, or nationalism.

My Father’s story also follows the Pope – a bit. I believe at 16 my father was sent abroad to Poland where he dug trenches – where he accidentally exhumed mass graves from previous pogroms. Ultimately, he “joined” the Navy – but he was outspoken in his disdain for the Nazi party and found himself, after his second (or third) desertion, an enemy of the fatherland. Ironically, it was his father (my Grandfather) who took him in at gunpoint. Fortunately, this happened near enough to the war’s end that the execution of Russian POWs (then in abundance) took priority, over the execution or traitors.

So from my father’s story I know resistance was possible, but certainly had its consequences. I’m not sure I’d blame anyone for not willing to risk their lives in the foolhardy manner that my father did. Interestingly enough, I think it was this wartime experience that galvanized my parents’ atheism, for all the evil done in the name of god, and horror God presumably allowed. Yet in this same set of circumstances, the Pope may have found his faith, and trust in God.

[scaeagles]

It is certainly interesting how similar circumstances turn people in opposite directions. Interesting post. Sounds as if your parents had their hands full at an early age.

[Ghoulish Delight]

It's a difficult, complicated mess to be sure. And I certainly don't fault him as a human being (or, more accurately, don't have enough information either way to fault him) for taking what was probably the safest route at the time, or possibly simply not having the necessary perspective to truly understand why what he was doing might be considered so wrong. However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope. Especially in light of his continued rhetoric that shows him to be a religious isolationist with contempt for other beliefs.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I've already mused about this enough elsewhere, but I enjoyed reading the post, C. Thanks.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

It's a difficult, complicated mess to be sure. And I certainly don't fault him as a human being (or, more accurately, don't have enough information either way to fault him) for taking what was probably the safest route at the time, or possibly simply not having the necessary perspective to truly understand why what he was doing might be considered so wrong. However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope. Especially in light of his continued rhetoric that shows him to be a religious isolationist with contempt for other beliefs.

And I pretty much wish this is how I'd expressed myself elsewhere. "excusable in my book for the common man, is...unsettling when it's in the past of a pope." Yes, that pretty much sums up my confused feelings on the subject quite nicely.

I also try not to be judgmental of others forced to make these kinds of awful decisions because I seriously doubt I’m the kind of person who would die in defense of my own principles. When it comes to life, I’m a greedy bastard. I live to live another day. I’m also, most likely, a coward, and I doubt I’d risk my life refusing to support an atrocity, or sacrifice my own life to save someone else’s. I’d like to feel differently about myself, and maybe I’d act differently than I imagine I would. Whatever. Being selfish about my own life span doesn’t make me a terrible person, I don’t think. But I think it should disqualify me from certain positions in this life.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Thanks for the input and the background. It's good to hear your perspective.

I don't put it past anyone in the human race to do what they need to in order to survive. I don't blame him for not trying harder to stand up against the party. But I really have to agree with Greg. Friends, priests, doctors who faced such a choice and chose to join up? Hey, we're all human. This guy's the pope.

Sure, sure. Augustine was a rabble-rouser and then became a saint. Everyone is human. I wish that the final word on doctrine didn't lay with a human, though. Maybe that's my central concern with the mess?

I actually think my central concern isn't with his time in the German services, though. It's the things he's said recently that are so terribly disconcerting.

[Name]

Doesn't he have the direct line to God now, so any doctrinal descisions he makes must be coming straight from God.......after all, he was chosen by God with the mouths(votes) of the cardinals that were guided by God.

I hope the sarcasm is apparent enough in this post, but if not, consider this the disclaimer.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

I actually think my central concern isn't with his time in the German services, though. It's the things he's said recently that are so terribly disconcerting.

In some ways it's the combination of the two that are unsettling. It seems the Catholic church took it's time to deal with it's own colaboration with the Nazis that this selection sort of smacks a bit of arrogance. Likewise some of the positions the church has taken about sexually abusive priests. It doesn't serve their image well - at least here in the states.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

However, my gut says that that kind of transgression, while probably (again, not knowing the details of his time served) excuseable in my book for the common man, is...unsettleing when it's in the past of a pope.

GD, do you mind if I respond to someone on my LJ quoting this remark? It gets my point across better than I'll be able to.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Eliza Hodgkins 1812

GD, do you mind if I respond to someone on my LJ quoting this remark? It gets my point across better than I'll be able to.

Be my guest.