Katrina Response Mismanagement

[SacTown Chronic]

Go buy stock in Halliburton -- that'll cheer you up.

No bid contracts for all my friends! :cheers:

[Nephythys]

BUT, the GOP are the only ones who did it , now weren't they? Perhaps if the GOP didn't bring the entire Government to a GRINDING halt over a BJ for 3 years, and all were busy Governing, we MIGHT have been able to see 9/11 coming.


wow- way to avoid reality. Clinton was impeached for perjury- you know, lying under oath?


throwing out the red herring of BJ's :rolleyes:

[PanTheMan]

Perjury about a BJ. What should have been between Hilary, Him and Monica. Have you read the Star Report? WOW, reads like penthouse letters.

When i was in the Air Force, I stood right below Ronald Reagan, whle i was stationed in England, listenening to him give a speech to the British public and media, where he swore that our Base did not have Nukes. Right before the speech he toured the area where we kept the Nukes. They ALL Lie.

It's not like he lied to the country about reasons for going to war or anything, I hope a president NEVER does that....lol


wow- way to avoid reality. Clinton was impeached for perjury- you know, lying under oath?


throwing out the red herring of BJ's :rolleyes:

[scaeagles]

Lies about national security issues take place all the time. Nature of the business. As someone who was in the airforce, you should know that. Didn't Carter say during his campaign in the 70s that he was going to get to the bottom of the UFO issues and tell the American people? Couldn't do it - national security issue. Also, not under oath. Lying is not illegal unless you are.

I would agree with you, Pan, about it belonging between Clinton, Hillary, and Monica, except for the fact that these things took place in the Oval Office, at times while foreign leaders were waiting to meet with him.

I would suspect that if the the CEO of a major corporation was getting a BJ in his office prior to a stockholders meeting there might be some cries for his resignation or ouster.

If he's gonna do it elsewhere, when he doesn't have other things he should be concentrating on, OK - I'm with you. But that's not how it happened.

[PanTheMan]

I am.....depressed. Many of you may not agree with my reasoning, but many will also be shocked by what I am saying.

My major criticism of Bush has always been that he spends money. Lots of money. Too much money. Granted, all spending bills originate in the House, but he's got a veto pen. He hasn't vetoed anything, much less a spending bill. So what does he do last night? He basically promises everyone everything. This is nothing but an attempt to buy his way out of political trouble for the slow response to the disaster. And as everyone here knows, I don't hold the feds responsible for most of the damage, delays, or death. I know there is debate on it, but that's not my point.

In Mississippi, the governor has made it well known that he expects insurance companies are going to take care of everything. If insurance policies were purchased, then the damn well better. But with Bush promising the farm in LA, that incentivizes delays by insurance companies.

I am not meaning to sound insensitive. Help is one thing. Disaster aide. Relocation assistance. But to promise to rebuild it better than it was before? To eliminate poverty from the region? How the hell can anyone do that? Some 5 trillion dollars of wealth transfers over the last 50 years hasn't done squat to eliminate it.

I have lost all hope of the vision of Reagan for smaller federal government. With the SC eliminating states rights and an ever stronger federal government pulling the purse strings, there is no hope any longer.

I am completely disillusioned. Hopefully Carville won't have a chance to nab me again, because I'd be pretty vulnerable to being brainwashed right now.

The sad thing is I know the dems would be no better about it. So where to go? It is most certainly now, for me, the lesser of two evils. I have no hope any longer. The republicans have had power in the House and Senate for over a decade, with a Republican President for half of it. Yet the spending continues to increase, the promises of taking care of the populace continue to increase (not just this, but stuff like medicare prescription coverage, etc), and government grows ever bigger.

I want to puke.

I believe there are still MANY Republicans who believe in a smaller federal Government. Bush has promised the Farm since day one. From here on out for him it will all be about trying to recover his ratings. But at Last it seems the country has awaken, and see's that the Emporor has no clothes. The Hundreds of billions of dollars we have spent on 'Homeland Security' to streamline our response to any attack or disaster, has been exposed as the largest scam in the country's history.

One thing we must relize is SOCIETY IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK. With that Politics is like a pendulim swinging from left to right. It is true you cant make all of the people happy all of the time, but if you can keep all the people happy ever 10 years or so, you can continue with the status quo.

Look at the Idiots on the Religious right- Abortion will never be illegal, yet it is the one issue the GOP dangles in front of them to keep them on thier side. If Jesus were walking the streets of America today, it is the social programs and care of those on the bottom of the pile that the DEMS offer that would attract him. (Not to mention an anti-death penalty stance, you remember, throwing the first stone and all)

So, Go ahead and Puke, but know this has been going on for over 200 years here. Why do you think we have such a problem with a self medicated society?....lol. We have always been told what to do by a government with a split personality.

[Prudence]

It's an over simplification, but the "conservative" party is no longer conservative about spending or government involvement. "Conservative" now means social conservative. No only that, but it's willing to be pretty damn liberal with spending and government involvement to enfore its social conservatism.

"Conservative" and "liberal" -- and by extension "Republican" and "Democrat" -- are assumed to indicate how someone feels about homosexuals, television programming, and prayer in schools.

[PanTheMan]

And you think Lying about a BJ was worth tying up the Government and costing the billions that it did was worth it?

Reagan AVOIDED LYing under oath in the Iran-Contra scandal by invoking Executive priveledge. Had Clinton invoked E.P. we would all have assumed he was guilty of God Knows what. ( I think the GOP thought this would be the case) From there the flood gates would have opened on accusations of all sorts of wrong doing.

But when in over 2 hours of testemony, it was found, he didn't Lie about Whitewater, Vince Foster, or numerous other accusations, it came down to a 5 second answer lying about his PERSONAL SEX LIFE that got him Tried for impeachment.

Do you know what a JOKE the USA looked like to the rest of the World?

Lies about national security issues take place all the time. Nature of the business. As someone who was in the airforce, you should know that. Didn't Carter say during his campaign in the 70s that he was going to get to the bottom of the UFO issues and tell the American people? Couldn't do it - national security issue. Also, not under oath. Lying is not illegal unless you are.

I would agree with you, Pan, about it belonging between Clinton, Hillary, and Monica, except for the fact that these things took place in the Oval Office, at times while foreign leaders were waiting to meet with him.

I would suspect that if the the CEO of a major corporation was getting a BJ in his office prior to a stockholders meeting there might be some cries for his resignation or ouster.

If he's gonna do it elsewhere, when he doesn't have other things he should be concentrating on, OK - I'm with you. But that's not how it happened.

[PanTheMan]

And as for Carter and the UFO's.....lol....

Now there is a National Priority!!!..Where is the outrage!!...lol

I NEED Answers to that Anal probing! ....lol

[scaeagles]

You completely missed my point, Pan.

Personal sex life is not so personal when you are doing it in your office with an intern before meetings with foreign dignitaries.

We disagree, and that's fine.

[scaeagles]

And as for Carter and the UFO's.....lol....

Now there is a National Priority!!!..Where is the outrage!!...lol

I NEED Answers to that Anal probing! ....lol

Again, you missed the point. The UFO thing was about...you guessed it....national security, because most of the stuff reported is sightings of secret aircraft.

[scaeagles]

And I don't care what the world thinks about us. Even our closest allies have nothing close to our Constitution. No gaurantee of free speech, right to bear arms, free expression of religion, etc, etc, etc.

I don't care what a bunch of third world dictators think of the US, either.

I don't care what Communist regimes like China or North Korea think of the US, either.

I don't care what.....well, you get the idea.

[Gn2Dlnd]

Hey, like I said, impeachment is a great idea for a new thread.

scaeagles, I was banging my head against the car window through the entire speech. About 45 seconds of, "Things didn't go the way they should have," followed by a half dozen anectotes of, "The Triumph of Humanity." I would have liked for him to address the days and days of lack of leadership, lack of communication, lack of compassion, and lack of accountability. Instead, we got, "Here's a truckload of money. Workin' hard is gonna be hard work."

My partner and I have been seriously considering moving our business to New Orleans as soon as they are ready to have people back. Eventually, we expect to be able to provide 30-50 jobs, and my product really does seem like it ought to have come from there.

Could the sh!t-stirrers please start another thread or go away? 3 pages of tit-for tat, and "Don't blame my guy, your guy fecked up first," is tiresome. The entire system failed! No-bid contracts have been handed out to the president's allies and cronies. People died because the "right forms" weren't filled out, the "right requests" weren't made, and those who were "rescued" weren't cared for.

Please don't bring up the "busses under water," again, without posting links to a timeline of how those busses were used that day, where the drivers were, your suggestions, based on your knowledge of New Orleans roads and parking facilities, for a better place to park them, how long, exactly, do municipal employees work into a level 5 hurricane before they, themselves, evacuate, and a realistic evaluation of the consequences of recruiting the evacuees to drive the busses (which direction? what routes are clear? where do they stop for gas? how do you care for the elderly and injured? how do you handle the assholes with guns, who, no doubt, would have hijacked the busses?)

Hey, thanks.

[PanTheMan]

you still didnt address the main point....

It seems all some can do are re-state GOP talking points. No one, when the Sheet hits the fan, cares what France thinks.

Just as on the NOLA disaster the White House will repeat, over and over and over and over again, it doesn't want to "Play the Blame Game" as it hypocritically backdoors BLAME all across the board.

Had the Mayor of NOLA grabbed people off the streets to drive those Buses, I'm sure the GOP would be screaming the Mayor hired a bunch of Crack-heads to evacuate the city. (There also was No Gas to put in the busses)

But Lets Not Play the Blame Game. Did I mention the Blame game? The one we shouldn't play?.... etc....

[scaeagles]

Had the Mayor of NOLA grabbed people off the streets to drive those Buses, I'm sure the GOP would be screaming the Mayor hired a bunch of Crack-heads to evacuate the city.

With apologies to Gn2Dlnd.....

Probably so. Just like when Bush viewed the damage from Air Force one. Some were mad that he flew over in such a luxurious aircraft while so many were suffering. However, if he doesn't view the damage, then he's uncaring. In the game of politics, you can criticize literally anything by using arguments of how it would have been so much better do the something else. It doesn't matter what is done - both sides do it, so I don't really care about that kind of stuff.

[Nephythys]

ya know what's funny- the way people like to piegon hole others-

I'm conservative about many things- but very central on others......
I think Bush is better than Kerry ever would have been- so far there has not been a democrat I could vote for- would I if they would do the things I want done- in a heartbeat.
Just the other day my mom, who is even more conservative than I- said that sometimes she can't stand Bush- she thinks he can be such a wimp. We are both very unhappy about many many things he has done- or not done!
But what I have no patience for is the drivel passed off as leftist rhetoric- as if somehow that is supposed to batter us into going whole hog for your idealogy- it won't happen. Clinton was not impeached for a BJ, and I don't appreciate having my intelligence insulted by the claim otherwise-

[Gn2Dlnd]

With apologies to Gn2Dlnd.....

Probably so. Just like when Bush viewed the damage from Air Force one. Some were mad that he flew over in such a luxurious aircraft while so many were suffering. However, if he doesn't view the damage, then he's uncaring. In the game of politics, you can criticize literally anything by using arguments of how it would have been so much better do the something else. It doesn't matter what is done - both sides do it, so I don't really care about that kind of stuff.

Appearances and actions mean so much. Had GW been in a helicopter, flown reasonably low enough around the city long enough to actually get a decent look, and, immediately upon landing, made a statement regarding what was being done right now, he wouldn't be seen as uncaring or inactive. Sides shouldn't enter into it, he's the President, he should act like it.

[PanTheMan]

I am odd in that I have views from Conservative to liberal and everywhere in between.
I have NEVER voted for Barbara Boxer, even when i know little about who is against her, they still get my vote.

I think 95% of America is In the Middle. And I think those out on the fringe who scream and kick like spoiled childern get all the Press.

Bush has shown on several occasions he does well when he has a few days to reherse what he has been told to say. Great Leader? No.

Kerry would have been the same. Giving the speeches that were written for him. Gore would have been better, as he would put us to sleep with his speeches, and while asleep we wouldn't care....lol. But under Gore, we would NOT be in IRAQ, and we would still have FEMA seperate and under qualified leadership. Who Knows, might even have Bin Laden in prison.

But I will tell you all a Little Secret. That it is WE THE PEOPLE who are in charge. WE THE PEOPLE cannot be governed without our consent to be governed. WE THE PEOPLE need to rise up and stop being SHEEP to an Idiot or Idiots who have THEIR best intrests taken care of, but not OURS. WE THE PEOPLE can change things, but as long as we fight eachother and not them, THEY will continue on, left and right, and WE THE PEOPLE will continue to bicker and whine.

[Nephythys]

Gore??

wow- that made me laugh out loud- thanks!

[Morrigoon]

Probably so. Just like when Bush viewed the damage from Air Force one. Some were mad that he flew over in such a luxurious aircraft while so many were suffering. However, if he doesn't view the damage, then he's uncaring. In the game of politics, you can criticize literally anything by using arguments of how it would have been so much better do the something else. It doesn't matter what is done - both sides do it, so I don't really care about that kind of stuff.
And if they did it perfectly, the other side would call it a carefully orchestrated photo op, or something along those lines.

[scaeagles]

Appearances and actions mean so much. Had GW been in a helicopter, flown reasonably low enough around the city long enough to actually get a decent look, and, immediately upon landing, made a statement regarding what was being done right now, he wouldn't be seen as uncaring or inactive. Sides shouldn't enter into it, he's the President, he should act like it.

Fair enough - but I have no doubt that should he have done that, with the necessary security entourage, etc, the criticism would be that he was in the way only to get a political photo op, much as it was when he was at ground zero post 9/11 clearing away debris and hugging and talking to the workers there.

No win situation no matter what he does. I believe you are sincere in your criticism. I have no doubt many leaders in the democratic party are not sincere, and are themselves only trying to score political points in their criticism of it. It is incredibly easy to find fault and present a different course of action as the better one, and use whatever that may be as an argument to support a position critical of your political opponent.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And if they did it perfectly, the other side would call it a carefully orchestrated photo op, or something along those lines.You mean like the work on the levees that mysteriously stopped after Bush left? Or the town that Bush's motorcade drove through yesterday that miraculously regained power 30 minutes prior to said drive-through only for it to be turned off again an hour later? Naw, would never happen.

[Gn2Dlnd]

I thought this was an interesting line from last night's speech:
The government of this nation will do its part, as well. Our cities must have clear and up-to-date plans for responding to natural disasters, and disease outbreaks, or a terrorist attack, for evacuating large numbers of people in an emergency, and for providing the food and water and security they would need. In a time of terror threats and weapons of mass destruction, the danger to our citizens reaches much wider than a fault line or a flood plain.

They're baaack!

[Morrigoon]

GD: I'm not saying carefully orchestrated photo ops don't exist... we've seen plenty of evidence that they do.

I'm just saying that even if someone could react exactly perfectly, if a significant portion of the population (eg: the "other" political party) was already predisposed to dislike anything someone did, then the "perfect" reaction would have its motivations questioned.

[Gn2Dlnd]

You mean like the work on the levees that mysteriously stopped after Bush left? Or the town that Bush's motorcade drove through yesterday that miraculously regained power 30 minutes prior to said drive-through only for it to be turned off again an hour later? Naw, would never happen.

From Brian Williams, NBC Nightly News http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9314188/#050916:
I am duty-bound to report the talk of the New Orleans warehouse district last night: there was rejoicing (well, there would have been without the curfew, but the few people I saw on the streets were excited) when the power came back on for blocks on end. Kevin Tibbles was positively jubilant on the live update edition of Nightly News that we fed to the West Coast. The mini-mart, long ago cleaned out by looters, was nonetheless bathed in light, including the empty, roped-off gas pumps. The motorcade route through the district was partially lit no more than 30 minutes before POTUS drove through. And yet last night, no more than an hour after the President departed, the lights went out. The entire area was plunged into total darkness again, to audible groans. It's enough to make some of the folks here who witnessed it... jump to certain conclusions.

[Ghoulish Delight]

..then the "perfect" reaction would have its motivations questioned.Probably true, but if the actions truly were correct, then those questions could easily be answered.

[Morrigoon]

Nah. Truth has no place in the court of public opinion.

[Gn2Dlnd]

Not that it has any bearing on the proceedings in New Orleans, did anyone else notice that GW's shirt was buttoned wrong?

http://www.c-span.org/

Realplayer video is 4th down.

Nicely pressed, though.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

That kind of sums up his presidency...

Buttoned wrong but nicely pressed. :)

[scaeagles]

There you go again - you libs mocking appeara.....(stops typing to zip his zipper)....nce.

[Gn2Dlnd]

< Points and laughs >

[scaeagles]

I'm sure you're laughing because the zipper is down....not at anything else, right?????

(damn - shouldn't have worn boxers today)

[SacTown Chronic]

Zipper down....that's an impeachable offense.

[PanTheMan]

Katrina forecasters were remarkably accurate
Levee breaks, catastrophic damage predicted, contrary to Bush claims

MSNBC staff and news service reports

MIAMI - For all the criticism of the Bush administration’s confused response to Hurricane Katrina, at least two federal agencies got it right: the National Weather Service and the National Hurricane Center.

They forecast the path of the storm and the potential for devastation with remarkable accuracy.

The performance by the two agencies calls into question claims by President Bush and others in his administration that Katrina was a catastrophe that no one envisioned.

For example, Bush told ABC on Sep. 1 that “I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.” In its storm warnings, the hurricane center never used the word “breached.” But a day before Katrina came ashore Aug. 29, the agency warned in capital letters: “SOME LEVEES IN THE GREATER NEW ORLEANS AREA COULD BE OVERTOPPED.”

National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield also gave daily pre-storm videoconference briefings to federal officials in Washington, warning them of a nightmare scenario of New Orleans’ levees not holding, winds smashing windows in high-rise buildings and flooding wiping out large swaths of the Gulf Coast.

A photo on the White House Web site shows Bush in Crawford, Texas, watching Mayfield give a briefing on Aug. 28, a day before Katrina smashed ashore with 145-mph winds.

‘Incredible’ human suffering predicted
The National Weather Service office in Slidell, La., which covers the New Orleans area, put out its own warnings that day, saying, “MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS ... PERHAPS LONGER” and predicting “HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.”

But Mayfield said: “The fact that we had a major hurricane forecast over or near New Orleans is reason for great concern. The local and state emergency management knew that as well as FEMA did.”

And the risk to New Orleans in particular was well-recognized long before Katrina.

“The 33 years that I’ve been at the hurricane center we have always been saying — the directors before me and I have always said — that the greatest potential for the nightmare scenarios, in the Gulf of Mexico anyway, is that New Orleans and southeast Louisiana area,” Mayfield said.

Heeding Mayfield's warnings, FEMA conducted a ‘Hurricane Pam’ exercise 13 months before Katrina struck to assess how New Orleans would handle a theoretical Category 3 hurricane. The exercise predicted a gap in the levee system would flood major portions of the city and damage as much as 87 percent of New Orleans' homes.


The hurricane center and the weather service have not been without critics. Some private meteorologists laud the accurate forecasts but wonder why those dire predictions were not issued earlier. They also argue that residents were bombarded with too much information from several sources.


Storm-track projections on target
As early as three days before Katrina pulverized the Gulf Coast, the hurricane center warned that New Orleans was in the Category 4 hurricane’s path. Storm-track projections released to the public more than two days (56 hours) before Katrina came ashore were off by only about 15 miles — and only because the hurricane made a slight turn to the right before hitting land just to the east of New Orleans.

That is better than the average 48-hour error of about 160 miles and 24-hour error of about 85 miles.

Two days before the storm hit, the hurricane center predicted Katrina’s strength at landfall; the agency was off the mark by only about 10 mph. That kind of accuracy is unusual, because forecasters find it particularly difficult to predict whether a storm will strengthen or weaken.

The next day, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city after speaking with Bush. Katrina had been updated to a Category 5 storm with NOAA predicting coastal storm surge flooding of 15 to 20 feet above normal tide levels.

AccuWeather Inc. senior meteorologist Michael Steinberg said emergency managers and the public could have been given an earlier warning of Katrina’s threat to New Orleans. He said the private company had issued forecasts nearly 12 hours earlier than the hurricane center warning that Katrina was aiming at the area.

He said that difference was significant because it would have given more daylight hours for evacuations.

Mayfield said hurricane watches and warnings are issued to give 36 and 24 hours’ notice, respectively. Lengthening that time could mean larger areas than necessary would be evacuated, he said. That could cause larger traffic jams and put people in danger of being stuck on the road when the hurricane hit.

Trotter also wanted to make sure the public knew of the Category 4 hurricane’s threat beforehand. His forecasters publicly warned that a hurricane of that magnitude could cause widespread destruction of buildings, hurl small cars into the air and cause the levee system to fail.

But Trotter went even further and called Katrina “A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED STRENGTH ... RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.” That storm wiped some towns off the map along the Gulf Coast and killed 256 people.

Warning phone calls to governors, mayors
Mayfield also did something he rarely does before a hurricane hits: He personally called the governors of Mississippi and Louisiana and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin two days ahead of time to warn them about the monstrous hurricane. Nagin has said he ordered an evacuation because Mayfield’s call “scared the hell” out of him.

“I just wanted to be able to go to sleep that night knowing I had done everything I could,” Mayfield said.

[Ghoulish Delight]

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/k.html

(pg-13 language)

[PanTheMan]

^^^ That was funny. Thanks for the laugh...

[Gemini Cricket]

A friend sent this link to me. I thought it may have been an article before FEMA's Brownie was fired. It's from today's paper!

-------------------
Nearly three weeks after Hurricane Katrina cut its devastating path, FEMA - the same federal agency that botched the rescue mission - is faltering in its effort to aid hundreds of thousands of storm victims, local officials, evacuees and top federal relief officials say. The federal aid hot line mentioned by President Bush in his address to the nation on Thursday cannot handle the flood of calls, leaving thousands of people unable to get through for help, day after day.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/17/national/nationalspecial/17fema.html?ei=5094&en=3d1b3e2be5958146&hp=&ex=1126929600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

(Concerning this link: Sometimes an ad will pop-up first. There's a box at the top right where you can skip the ad and go to the article.)

[Betty]

Do you think that things would have been handled differently if Bush had not been elected? Or do you think that this would have occurred no matter who was president because the failure was on so many levels - or for some other reason?

If you could turn back time, knowing what you know now, would you have changed your vote to the other guy (from whoever you voted for originally)

[Name]

Me personally, I think this would have been handled exactly the same no matter who was president. Just my gut feeling. The problem as I see it is not a REP vs. DEM problem. Its a desire by idiots to hold a position of power when they are, IMNSHO, highly unqualified to do so. And the biggest problem is, we only really get a small selection of people to choose from and end up choosing what we believe is the lesser of two evils.

What I believe, is that what we have for leaders in this country are not people that have a desire to serve the country as a whole, but that will only say what they think needs to be said and have the pictures taken at the events that would provide for the best PR. ****e, its really not much more then a PR position anyway, we might as well elect Sean Penn into the white house, we already know that he can act, so he couldn't do much worse then any of the other actors that have held the office the last several years. What I am starting to believe we need is a man(or woman) that is a regular Joe Schmoe in the white house, enough with the career politicians, they have obviously proven themselves to be ineffective leaders with their PR photo ops and speeeches designed to make the public feel warm and fuzzy. We need a man of action in the position, not a man of speeches. Its funny that Bush is not the best speech maker, but he has also proven himself to be more concerned with PR then getting sh1t done. So, we're screwed, unless the we can pull our collective heads out of our a$$es, we can expect to see more of the same, no matter what the future candidates say during their campaign.

I would be more apt to vote for any candidate that answered a question about how they would react to a disaster such as this with a big "I don't know, but I would act as quickly as possible." Of course, there really is no way to know what will happen until it happens and no way to know how a person will perform until they are needed to perform. And that is what I think really sucks. A person could have the worst record in all their life, and be the best performer in the rest of their life. I like to say that past performance doesn't dictate future results. But we judge everyone on thier past, from candidate for president, to candidates for bag boy at the local market. In a nutshell, we're screwed.

I will now end this rant, as I noticed I have gone over my time, and concede the floor to the gentleman from Arizona, the Lady from Colorado, the Lady from Washington, or any of the other fine people from wherever you might be from.

[wendybeth]

How about the chick from Washington, Name?

Great post, and I agree. This would probably have happened no matter what- they've been warning about the potential for dister for decades, not just the past five years. Having corrupt local politicos and Levee officials didn't help. However, certain things were in place that hindered FEMA's ability to preform as they might have, and there is no getting around the fact that the politicians have some responsibility. Merging FEMA with HS and then underfunding it because of lack of funds due to the war effort is one example. Utilising the National Guard to such a degree in said war effort is another- the director of the Guard has been warning for some time now that should a homeland crisis arise, they were a "nearly broken" entity and would not be able to perform as they were intended. Dems and Repubs are both responsible, and the only real blame I would lay at Bush's feet is his slow response and that he is their leader -the buck stops at his desk. I would say the same for any other president, really.

[Name]

^^^ better? :p :D

[SacTown Chronic]

So where's the rollback of welfare for wealthy people, er, I mean Bush tax cuts, to pay for the huge no-bid gifts to Halliburton and friends, er, I mean giant reconstruction effort?


Fvcking crooks and liars, man. Crooks and liars.

[scaeagles]

RE: Halliburton. This is often a rallying cry for those that oppose Bush and the administration. I have two honest issues about that - I'm really not trying to be a smarta$$ (at least not this time) -

Was it OK for Clinton to give a no-bid contract to Halliburton? If so, why?

How many companies are capable fo doing what Halliburton does? Does it make sense to take the time to put this particular job - if someone else is capable of doing it - out to the process of a government bid? Do you know how long that takes? If it were put out to bid, it would take months, so absolutely nothing relating to what Halliburton does would be getting worked on.

[Name]

And since Haliburton does just about everything within their umbrella of sub-companies, well, who needs to ask for bids for any project, just give Halliburton the no-bid contract.

[SacTown Chronic]

Did Clinton start a war and then give no-bid contracts for rebuilding the conquered country to his Veep's company?

Did Clinton demote a whistleblower who spoke out against the improper awarding of no-bid contracts to the Veep's company?

Did Clinton suspend the prevailing wage law right before giving no-bid reconstruction contracts to his Veep's company?

Did Clinton's head of FEMA resign his post and start a company that provides business opportunities in Iraq?

Clinton...Clinton...Clinton. I need a BJ.

[scaeagles]

Sac - chill out. I'm not picking on Clinton. I only ask because it isn't only the Bush administration that has awarded no bid contracts to Halliburton. I had no problem with it then, and I have no problem with it now, particularly under these circumstances. Government bids take too long in certain circumstances. I know - I've bid on government contracts before and it is a long, arduous process.

[PanTheMan]

Halliburton has been a sore point as VICE PRESIDENT DICK still recieves $150,000 a year in 'Deferred Payments" from them in some sort of loophole, even though ethically it is a conflict of intrest. But "Ethics" are a rather elusive topic among politicians.

IF Clinton ever gave a contract to Halliburton (When Chaney was LEGALLY employed by them) it would not have been a problem as there were no direct ties to the Clinton administration.

The DEM Equivelant would have been if CLINTON offered a housing construction contract to WHITEWATER land development inc!!!! Can you imagine the GOP Hellstorm that would have poured out upon Clinton for that?

In Other WEIRD news , KARL ROVE was put in charge of overseeing cleanup and rebuilding expected to take until 2015???? Sounds like a nifty way to make sure he is on a payroll, long after Bushie is back shoveling cow turds in Crawford. What in the F does he know about "Clean-up and rebuilding"??? Just another Bush-Cronie job handout. Will he ever learn?

[SacTown Chronic]

I'm not picking on Clinton.
I love it when you pick on Clinton. But when you defend Bush by using Clinton...eh, not so much.


(But I loved it when you defended Dubya by bashing Bush 41 and FEMA) :evil:



I need a BJ.
:blush: Oops, wrong thread. Crystal doesn't read many political threads.


Maybe I should try flowers?

[wendybeth]

Well, the FEMA mismanagement continues, and hits close to home:Help turned away (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9392567/)

[PanTheMan]

Well, the FEMA mismanagement continues, and hits close to home:Help turned away (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9392567/)


Well i agree it will take a bit of time to iron out the kinks, however i feel the guy they have now will get the job done. I have great faith that the Coast Guard has the best of experience working in these situations.

[Crystal]

:blush: Oops, wrong thread. Crystal doesn't read many political threads.
Maybe I should try flowers?

You better be glad I didn't see this sooner, otherwise I'd a been holdin' out for some flowers....next time, however... :evil:

[wendybeth]

File this one under "Surely they had better things to do?"

Looting Grandma released from jail (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9408059/)

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well, at least the one good thing to come out of this is that Bush has learned his lesson about cronyism.

Or maybe not...


The Bush administration is seeking to appoint a lawyer with little immigration or customs experience to head the troubled law enforcement agency that handles those issues, prompting sharp criticism from some employee groups, immigration advocates and homeland security experts.

The push to appoint Julie Myers to head the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, part of the Department of Homeland Security, comes in the midst of intense debate over the qualifications of department political appointees involved in the sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina.

Concerns over Myers, 36, were acute enough at a Senate hearing last week that lawmakers asked the nominee to detail during her testimony her postings and to account for her management experience. Sen. George V. Voinovich (R-Ohio) went so far as to tell Myers that her résumé indicates she is not qualified for the job.

-snip-

Myers also was an associate under independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr for about 16 months and has most recently served as a special assistant to President Bush handling personnel issues.


It's not like it's an important agency or anything, right. It's not like we are having any problems controlling immigration.

Well, at least Bush didn't put someone like Karl Rove in charge of the Hurricane Katrina reconstruction effort (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/09/15/BL2005091501098.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns). Oh wait...

[Gemini Cricket]

Looting Grandma released from jail (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9408059/)
If she were white, the press would have called her the "Just Looking for Food to Feed her Poor, Poor Family" Grandma.
:(

[wendybeth]

I'm sure Barbara Bush is consoled by the idea that the Grandma's accomodations were an improvement on her former.

[lindyhop]

I did hear New Orleans used to be above sea level until they built the heavy modern buildings and then it sank.

Las Vegas is also having some issues concerning heavy buildings. Their water table is rising from all the weight.
Sorry, I'm pulling this quote from the distance past (as I try to catch up on two weeks of new posts) but it's too weird.

I was supposed to attend a conference in New Orleans in mid-September which had to be cancelled for obvious reasons. The conference has been rescheduled for Las Vegas in late October.

Does this mean Las Vegas will be underwater soon? :eek:

[PanTheMan]

Well, at least the one good thing to come out of this is that Bush has learned his lesson about cronyism.

Or maybe not...

Well, at least Bush didn't put someone like Karl Rove in charge of the Hurricane Katrina reconstruction effort (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/09/15/BL2005091501098.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns). Oh wait...

He will NEVER Learn. Great leaders LEAD. LEADING a nation is NOT doing favors for freinds at the cost of America.

[Gn2Dlnd]

From today's Washington Post -

For 16 critical hours, Federal Emergency Management Agency officials, including former director Michael D. Brown, dismissed urgent eyewitness accounts by FEMA's only staffer in New Orleans that Hurricane Katrina had broken the city's levee system the morning of Aug. 29 and was causing catastrophic flooding, the staffer told the Senate yesterday...

At 11:20 a.m. Aug. 31, Bahamonde e-mailed Brown, "Sir, I know that you know the situation is past critical . . . thousands gathering in the streets with no food or water . . . estimates are many will die within hours."

At 2:27 p.m., however, Brown press secretary Sharon Worthy wrote colleagues to schedule an interview for Brown on MSNBC's "Scarborough Country" and to give him more time to eat dinner because Baton Rouge restaurants were getting busy: "He needs much more that 20 or 30 minutes."

Bahamonde e-mailed a friend to "just tell [Worthy] that I just ate an MRE . . . along with 30,000 other close friends so I understand her concern."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102000858.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

BTW, the actual quote, minus the ellipses, but still containing mysteriously replaced text is, "OH MY GOD!!!!! Just tell her that I just ate an MRE and [went to the bathroom] in the hallway of the Superdome along with 30,000 other close friends, so I understand her concern about busy restaurants."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9756145/

I'm guessing he didn't write, "tinkled."

[lindyhop]

My goodness. The LA Times printed the entire quote including the apparently bad word. :eek:

The Times printed the text of a bunch of e-mails alongside the main story and reading them really made my day. :evil:

[Gn2Dlnd]

Crap!

[Gn2Dlnd]

'Can I quit now?' FEMA chief wrote as Katrina raged (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/index.html)

"In the midst of the overwhelming damage caused by the hurricane and enormous problems faced by FEMA, Mr. Brown found time to exchange e-mails about superfluous topics," including "problems finding a dog-sitter," Melancon said.

Melancon said that on August 26, just days before Katrina made landfall, Brown e-mailed his press secretary, Sharon Worthy, about his attire, asking: "Tie or not for tonight? Button-down blue shirt?"

A few days later, Worthy advised Brown: "Please roll up the sleeves of your shirt, all shirts. Even the president rolled his sleeves to just below the elbow. In this [crisis] and on TV you just need to look more hard-working."

On August 29, the day of the storm, Brown exchanged e-mails about his attire with Taylor, Melancon said. She told him, "You look fabulous," and Brown replied, "I got it at Nordstroms. ... Are you proud of me?"

An hour later, Brown added: "If you'll look at my lovely FEMA attire, you'll really vomit. I am a fashion god," according to the congressman.

[Ghoulish Delight]

*shrug* I can't really blame him for that. Not that it's a good thing, but sadly appearances are a large part of the job description when it comes to high profile figures. It's lame, but far from Brown's doing.

[Alex]

So, before the storm caused damage he actually found time to talk about other things? Why is that a problem?

But it does look like any defense of the post landfall response is falling apart.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The more I read this report about his emails, to more annoyed I am that it's being considered "news". Umm, he's a human being going about his day. I mean, what's the implication here? Should he have NOT found someone to watch his dog while he traveled? Should he, as a public figure, not get advice about clothing so he presents himself in the best manner possible? Should all communication, 24 hours a day, be completely joyless and unfriendly just because he has a job to do?

About the only thing of real note is the offhand "Is there anything you want me to do about it" response when told about the situation at the Superdome. But the story focuses on such minute, unimportant crap that I have a hard time believing this is anything more than petty muckraking and kicking a guy while he's down.